The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

This Forum is for scientific, medical, pathological, environmental, etc. discussions.
Rules are different for this forum, be sure to read through them inside.
Forum rules
The rules for this forum are different from all the others on this site.
1) Questions regarding sick skinks do not belong here.
2) If you are not sure if your topic is OK here, post it in the General Discussion forum; a moderator can then move it here if appropriate.
3) This forum is for advanced discussions, such as scientific, medical, reproductive, pathological, environmental, etc.
4) PROOF, FACT, and BACK IT UP are three things to keep in mind when posting.
5) Comments need to add to the discussion. “Good job”, “I agree”, or “Nice skink” etc, do not add to the discussion and are not allowed here. If stating an opinion, back it up with what experiences have led to that opinion.
6) The 3 month rule is not in effect; you may post on any thread no matter how old it is.
User avatar
Bird_Brain
The Happy Hitman
The Happy Hitman
Posts: 4079
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:11 pm
Country:
Location: Warren, Indiana

The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Bird_Brain » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:09 pm

Alright, after a recent post in the General Discussion forum regarding a "fresh, homemade diet" (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21008&p=404193#p404193) , I began to wonder how "balanced" it was in regards to the Calcium:Phosphorus (C:P) ratio. And if it wasnt balanced, how much calcium powder would it actually take to get it balanced. I feel confident in my ability to figure out what the C:P ratio is, but not sure how to figure out how much calcium powder would be needed to get it to the 1.5:1 or 2:1 ratio that is typically recommended for reptiles.

Obviously, I could be way over thinking this whole process and maybe unnecessary. However, this has really made me curious, especially since we have had members whos skinks developed MBD due to their homemade diet.

In the above linked thread, the OP used boiled ground beef, shredded carrots, kale, and bok choi (also known as pak choi). I then went to this website: http://nutritiondata.self.com/ and searched each food in the search bar. Obviously I dont know the exact quantities the OP used, however, regardless of the quanity the ratio of C:P would not change. This is what I found:

Boiled Ground Beef (I used the 80% lean)- 1:10.5
Raw Carrot- 1:1.04
Raw Kale- 1:.41
Raw Bak Choi- 1:0.35

If we put equal parts of all those ingredients together, we would have a 1:3.07 ratio. I doubt equal parts were used, and more meat was actually used. If that is the case, the phosphorus levels would be higher than in the overall ratio i used. But would we need to figure out the exact quantity of each ingredient used to determine how much calcium powder we would have to add to get desired C:P ratio?

Im stumped. Anyone care to help?

Edit: Mel (Fatal_S and I will each be creating a meal for our skinks soon and will weigh everything out so we can get a better idea of how much calcium powder is actually needed to get the correct/recommended ratio.
Brad
User avatar
Fatal_S
Take Flight
Take Flight
Posts: 8335
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:40 pm
Country:
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Contact:

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Fatal_S » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:19 pm

To answer that you need to know not the ratio, but how much calcium is in each serving of food. For example if food A has 1g of calcium, 2g of phosphorus in a 100g meal, it only needs another g of calcium to balance the equation. But if it has 10g of calcium, 20g of phosphorus, you would need to add 10g of calcium.

IE: The ratio compares apples to oranges, but doesn't tell you how many apples were in the bag to start with.

Here's another question to stump you. If you mix a food with high calcium with a food with high phosphorus, do they cancel out? Now what if you feed one food, then the other a day later? Would the result change? How long with the high-phosphorus food cancel out calcium in the body? And what other nutrients cancel each other out when mixed, and how long does that effect last?

IE: If I add add fruit to dandelion greens, am I cancelling out any beneficial nutrients? Compared to feeding the items separately several days apart?

I could answer the first, I have no information on the second.
Melanie J. Pratt
www.MelsExotics.ca
Currently living at Mel's Exotics:
BTS: Northerns, Caramel Northerns, Meraukes, Irian Jayas, Silver Tanimbars, Yellow Tanimbars
AFTs: Wild-Type, Striped, Amelanistic, Caramel Albino, Patternless, White Out
California Kingsnake
Dumeril Boa
User avatar
Bird_Brain
The Happy Hitman
The Happy Hitman
Posts: 4079
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:11 pm
Country:
Location: Warren, Indiana

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Bird_Brain » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:22 pm

Fatal_S wrote:To answer that you need to know not the ratio, but how much calcium is in each serving of food. For example if food A has 1g of calcium, 2g of phosphorus in a 100g meal, it only needs another g of calcium to balance the equation. But if it has 10g of calcium, 20g of phosphorus, you would need to add 10g of calcium.

Ok, that is what I was thinking. Anyone care to measure out how much they use of each ingredient?

Fatal_S wrote:Here's another question to stump you. If you mix a food with high calcium with a food with high phosphorus, do they cancel out? Now what if you feed one food, then the other a day later? Would the result change? How long with the high-phosphorus food cancel out calcium in the body? And what other nutrients cancel each other out when mixed, and how long does that effect last?

That is beyond my ability to figure out.
Brad
User avatar
Fatal_S
Take Flight
Take Flight
Posts: 8335
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:40 pm
Country:
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Contact:

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Fatal_S » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:26 pm

I'll make a mash tomorrow and give you the grams of each used. I recently bought some yummy foods to use anyways.
Melanie J. Pratt
www.MelsExotics.ca
Currently living at Mel's Exotics:
BTS: Northerns, Caramel Northerns, Meraukes, Irian Jayas, Silver Tanimbars, Yellow Tanimbars
AFTs: Wild-Type, Striped, Amelanistic, Caramel Albino, Patternless, White Out
California Kingsnake
Dumeril Boa
User avatar
Katrina
The Daredevil
The Daredevil
Posts: 9767
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:34 pm
Country:
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Katrina » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:35 pm

Great discussion. It really proves how by just feeding healthy foods you don't take away the need to supplement calcium, especially because no one wants to do all the math to figure the ratios out!

ReptileKing wrote:
Fatal_S wrote:Here's another question to stump you. If you mix a food with high calcium with a food with high phosphorus, do they cancel out? Now what if you feed one food, then the other a day later? Would the result change? How long with the high-phosphorus food cancel out calcium in the body? And what other nutrients cancel each other out when mixed, and how long does that effect last?

That is beyond my ability to figure out.


I think it is beyond anyone's ability to figure out, at least with our current knowledge. There are so many different processes occurring in the body, and the body is so good at compensating for too little or too much of almost anything, that thinking of the calcium to phosphorus ratio as 1:1 is oversimplifying. Just thinking of our best idea of the wild bluey diet - it would definitely be much too high in phosphorus. But you see almost no wild blueys with MBD type issues, yet it is common in captivity. Maybe the natural sunlight is the difference?? There is lots we don't understand unfortunately, but at least we know that blueys that receive calcium + d3 supplements regularly don't seem to develop bone / MBD issues. Very interesting discussion, obviously very confusing for newer members!
User avatar
Jeff
Vladik Pippery
Vladik Pippery
Posts: 5684
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:33 pm
Country:
Location: Arizona, USA
Contact:

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Jeff » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:40 pm

Uhhhh, why is there so much resistance to dog food and mixed vegetables? 8)
6.10.9 T. s. intermedia
2.2.7 T. s. scincoides
1.2.1 T. nigrolutea
2.2.0 T. r. rugosa
1.2.3 T.g. keyensis
2.0.5 T.s. chimaera
0.0.0. T. occipitalis
0.0.0. T. multifasciata
http://www.btskinks.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bluetong ... 846297977#
User avatar
Bird_Brain
The Happy Hitman
The Happy Hitman
Posts: 4079
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:11 pm
Country:
Location: Warren, Indiana

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Bird_Brain » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:42 pm

You bring up good points Kat. Like you mentioned, it seems like the blueys would have a higher phosphorus intake and they should all have MBD issues. However, I wonder if they eat nonfood items to compensate? An example would be with chickens. Obviously they are completely different species than Blueys. However, they need to eat grit/rocks to help digest food. Also, if their diet lacks in calcium, the shells of the eggs laid will be very thin and not viable. However, I wonder if this grit is also somewhat digested and absorbed? Around here, we have a lot of limestone. Limestone is made of Calcium Carbonate. Are they able to digest some of this rock and absorb the calcium they need?

We have observed blueys eating rocks. Maybe they are lacking something in their diet and trying to make up for the loss? Could they be eating a "nonfood" item, such as rocks, to get additional calcium they need?
Brad
User avatar
Bird_Brain
The Happy Hitman
The Happy Hitman
Posts: 4079
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:11 pm
Country:
Location: Warren, Indiana

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Bird_Brain » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:44 pm

Jeff wrote:Uhhhh, why is there so much resistance to dog food and mixed vegetables? 8)

I am not resisting dog food with mixed veggies. That is pretty much the diet I use exclusively. But the thread I mentioned just got me thinking if the light dusting of calcium powder was actually enough? How much is actually needed?

IMO, dog food and veggies is a fail safe way of caring for the blueys, but yet they still seem to thrive on it. I feel you get the best of both worlds with that diet.
Brad
User avatar
Fatal_S
Take Flight
Take Flight
Posts: 8335
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:40 pm
Country:
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Contact:

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Fatal_S » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:57 pm

I believe wild BTS forage a lot. They end up eating quite a bit of plant matter in addition to the insects and snails. Gah, I can never find my bible when I need it.

I also don't resist the dog food, but I like to mix it up. When I see yummy foods, I buy them for the skinks, but I worry that if I mix in the wrong things I could be taking away from the pre-balanced diet.

There is always reason to ask question and advance our knowledge. Without these kinds of diet threads, I might still be killing my skinks with diets based on cooked-chicken.
Melanie J. Pratt
www.MelsExotics.ca
Currently living at Mel's Exotics:
BTS: Northerns, Caramel Northerns, Meraukes, Irian Jayas, Silver Tanimbars, Yellow Tanimbars
AFTs: Wild-Type, Striped, Amelanistic, Caramel Albino, Patternless, White Out
California Kingsnake
Dumeril Boa
User avatar
Jeff
Vladik Pippery
Vladik Pippery
Posts: 5684
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:33 pm
Country:
Location: Arizona, USA
Contact:

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Jeff » Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:31 pm

I have no problem with trying to understand nutrition better, but when I know what's healthy for my kids, I don't experiment with every fad that comes along. I feel the same way with my skinks. If something has been proven over multiple decades, it is important to recognize that trying other things that are not proven is experimenting. I'm not against experimenting, but I think it is important to acknowledge that it is an experiment. Otherwise diets that have not been proven to work get passed on to new keepers as though they have been.

I have no problem with this discussion, I just think that it needs to be clear that in the past there have been a lot more health issues with skinks that are fed complicated diets than there has been with skinks that are kept on the dog food & mixed vegetable diet, with calcium and D3 supplementation.
6.10.9 T. s. intermedia
2.2.7 T. s. scincoides
1.2.1 T. nigrolutea
2.2.0 T. r. rugosa
1.2.3 T.g. keyensis
2.0.5 T.s. chimaera
0.0.0. T. occipitalis
0.0.0. T. multifasciata
http://www.btskinks.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bluetong ... 846297977#
User avatar
Fatal_S
Take Flight
Take Flight
Posts: 8335
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:40 pm
Country:
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Contact:

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Fatal_S » Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:48 pm

So I assume that you avoid anything unhealthy with your children, correct? They eat the same perfectly balanced meals every day for their entire childhood? Or do you mix it up with other healthy meals, and occasionally allow an unhealthy snack?

Yes, skinks aren't people. There is no proof they care if they eat the same thing every day for their entire life. Maybe they'd even prefer it. But because I can't prove it, I will continue to give them as much of a rich and varied life as I can provide, including meals and snacks. I do ask myself though, how healthy my variety meals are, and if my variety causes much harm (how much harm, weighed again the potential (but never known) enrichment of life).

Jeff, please note that I get where you're coming from, and agree in many ways (I love my dogfood-diets and the effect they've had on my animals), but I have to question it too. While I would never go back to a homemade-no supplement-diet again, I will also never feed one perfect meal every time, or stop trying to advance my knowledge and enrich the lives of my animal-family.
Melanie J. Pratt
www.MelsExotics.ca
Currently living at Mel's Exotics:
BTS: Northerns, Caramel Northerns, Meraukes, Irian Jayas, Silver Tanimbars, Yellow Tanimbars
AFTs: Wild-Type, Striped, Amelanistic, Caramel Albino, Patternless, White Out
California Kingsnake
Dumeril Boa
User avatar
Richard.C
Kimberley Klan
Kimberley Klan
Posts: 10474
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:37 am
Country:
Location: melbourne australia

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Richard.C » Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:45 am

i use generally straight dogfood,dont even mix in veg,i like the k.i.s.s. system,if it aint broke dont fix it,lol

but in saying that nothing wrong with experimenting either,and it is great to see others ideas to,sometimes equally scary to,deli meat and lettuce comes to mind

i think people think to much into wild diets,especially whats scientifically published,but you have to remember why they eat things in the wild,its not because it has good calcium phosphorus ratios,its because at times that might be all thats available to survive

dog food is full of variety,the funny thing to me is alot of non believers make mixes up and end result is pox up against decent dogfood,eg boiled meat with 2 or 3 veg mixed in,alot mix fruit in instead of the veg,its alot more work and alot of the time its an inferior diet

back on to wild type diets,alot of the samples are quite small and may be done during one period of the year,so not an accurate measure of true diet,for that it needs to be done year round and over a fair few seasons and over many habitat types to be more accurate,as seasons vary,as do years and food supply available at different times and obviously different areas

look at pinktongues,snail and slug feeders predominantly,not fond of basking unless they need to,how do they survive with out eating veg,they are quite prolific to

there are lots of ways to do things,one of the pluses is they have such a wide tolorence to different foods,and there are lots of ways to do things,theres also lots of ways to stuff things up to,i get frustrated when people say dogfood is bad,just like when they say no uv exposure is bad as well,know one knows for sure what the full needs of these animals are entirley,but if u try it for years with no issue, producing
healthy babies that grow up well and follow suit,to me isnt that proof things must be going well,add that against joe blow whos had 1 animal for 6 months whos saying oh no,thats a bad diet,in the wild they eat mostly veg,i know which way ill be leaning,lol
User avatar
Bird_Brain
The Happy Hitman
The Happy Hitman
Posts: 4079
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:11 pm
Country:
Location: Warren, Indiana

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Bird_Brain » Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:57 am

Jeff,
My theory with this is that a person will need ridiculous amounts of calcium to balance out the diet, thus kinda making people rethink trying to make a homemade diet. Or if they still want to provide the fresh, homemade diet, to do a much better job researching the ingredients they use. Im honestly fine either way what people decide to use, however, I kinda like to have proof as well as enjoy digging deeper into the subject.

Instead of opening the cans of dog food I already have for the skinks, Im going to go out of my way and get some extra ingredients I dont have to do this "experiment" of measuring out all ingredients, finding out the exact C:P ratio, and determining exactly how much calcium powder will be needed to provide the recommended ratio. Basically I want to just prove my point. IMO, light dustings of calcium powder is not enough, but what is wrong to find out scientifically/mathematically?

IMO, this "experiment" will do one of two things: Help explain why the "dog food diet" would be amore balanced diet, or help people who wish to make the diet for their skinks at home a better idea of how to make it more healthy. Either way, I dont see why you would be so "against" us doing this? Why not try to better our knowledge as well as help others improve the health of their skinks?
Brad
User avatar
Jeff
Vladik Pippery
Vladik Pippery
Posts: 5684
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:33 pm
Country:
Location: Arizona, USA
Contact:

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Jeff » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:02 am

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I am against it. I said at least 3 times that I have no problem with talking about it, learning more, or experimenting. My problem is that the end result of this type of discussion is often people thinking that feeding a really complicated (and easy to screw up) diet is superior to dog food. I'm not worried at all about what experienced keepers will do, I'm more concerned about the people new to bts, who read two pages of a thread, and remember 3% of what was said. There is a really good chance that people with the best intentions will work really hard to prepare meals that are not nearly as healthy for their skink as dog food would be.

If everyone could prepare meals like El Lobo does, that would be great. I just don't think that is realistic for most people, and the nice thing about BTS, is that they don't require it. I just think that a reminder that dog food has been proven for decades, should be included in any discussion about other diets.
6.10.9 T. s. intermedia
2.2.7 T. s. scincoides
1.2.1 T. nigrolutea
2.2.0 T. r. rugosa
1.2.3 T.g. keyensis
2.0.5 T.s. chimaera
0.0.0. T. occipitalis
0.0.0. T. multifasciata
http://www.btskinks.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bluetong ... 846297977#
User avatar
Fatal_S
Take Flight
Take Flight
Posts: 8335
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:40 pm
Country:
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Contact:

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Fatal_S » Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:18 pm

Alrighty Brad, I have done your bidding, now you do the math.

The adult BTS meal consisted of...
...50g Dandelion Greens:
Image
...50g Collard Greens:
Image
...200g Spaghetti Squash:
Image
...150g Cooked Chicken Breast (from frozen):
Image
...10g Exo-Terra Calcium + D3 Supplement:
Image

All together the meals I made (adult BTS, baby BTS, Monkey Tails) took 3 hours to prepare and distribute. Honestly, the adult BTS weren't thrilled with such a high-veggie meal, but they're hungry enough to eat it. Dogfood would have been cheaper, quicker, and better received. So how does all this effort stack up nutritionally? Was the calcium balance alright? Would it have been alright without the supplement or how much more supplement would be needed?
Melanie J. Pratt
www.MelsExotics.ca
Currently living at Mel's Exotics:
BTS: Northerns, Caramel Northerns, Meraukes, Irian Jayas, Silver Tanimbars, Yellow Tanimbars
AFTs: Wild-Type, Striped, Amelanistic, Caramel Albino, Patternless, White Out
California Kingsnake
Dumeril Boa
User avatar
Katrina
The Daredevil
The Daredevil
Posts: 9767
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:34 pm
Country:
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Katrina » Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:25 pm

Jeff wrote:Uhhhh, why is there so much resistance to dog food and mixed vegetables? 8)


There was no resistance on my part...

That is the majority of my guys diets, but when I have time I like to add in all sorts of stuff for variety.
User avatar
Jeff
Vladik Pippery
Vladik Pippery
Posts: 5684
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:33 pm
Country:
Location: Arizona, USA
Contact:

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Jeff » Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:44 pm

I guess I am just not aware of ANY negatives associated with the dog food diet. That is why it is hard for me to understand why anyone would want to improve on it. If it is already working "perfectly", why mess with it?

I promise, I am not asking that in an argumentative way, I just honestly don't understand the need.
6.10.9 T. s. intermedia
2.2.7 T. s. scincoides
1.2.1 T. nigrolutea
2.2.0 T. r. rugosa
1.2.3 T.g. keyensis
2.0.5 T.s. chimaera
0.0.0. T. occipitalis
0.0.0. T. multifasciata
http://www.btskinks.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bluetong ... 846297977#
User avatar
Katrina
The Daredevil
The Daredevil
Posts: 9767
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:34 pm
Country:
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Katrina » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:00 pm

Jeff wrote:I guess I am just not aware of ANY negatives associated with the dog food diet. That is why it is hard for me to understand why anyone would want to improve on it. If it is already working "perfectly", why mess with it?

I promise, I am not asking that in an argumentative way, I just honestly don't understand the need.


I'm not trying to improve on it. Just one of the things I enjoy about having BTS is the diet / feeding part. I like making little skink meals. I don't think that adding a bunch of fresh veggies and extra stuff makes it any healthier, but I don't think it is any less healthy (I usually use dog food plus other stuff, so the majority of the diet is still dog food) and I enjoy it. I think it is probably good for them to get different foods rather than the same stuff every meal and I enjoy preparing it and trying new things when I have the time... so it isn't trying to improve on the dog food diet, at least in my case. It's just me enjoying making them meals and giving them variety.

I don't see it as a need at all, and I never recommend a complicated diet to newbies... but when I have the time and means, I like to offer it. :noknow: That's just my thoughts, not sure what others think.
User avatar
Bird_Brain
The Happy Hitman
The Happy Hitman
Posts: 4079
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:11 pm
Country:
Location: Warren, Indiana

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Bird_Brain » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:04 pm

Jeff wrote:I guess I am just not aware of ANY negatives associated with the dog food diet. That is why it is hard for me to understand why anyone would want to improve on it. If it is already working "perfectly", why mess with it?

I promise, I am not asking that in an argumentative way, I just honestly don't understand the need.

As with any animal diets, there are always going to be different ways to do it. In the dog world, you have anywhere from the cheap kibbles to the expense kibble, dehydrated, raw, homecooked, etc. There have been dogs that have thrived on cheap kibble for decades. Does that mean its the best? Absolutely not. Does it mean that the dog food that costs $60 for a 30# bag is a waste of money? Absolutely not. Just because it has worked in the past with great results, doesnt mean its the only way to do it. If someone wants to feed a raw diet to their dog, by all means go for it. I personally dont believe that is the best method, but yet there are many dogs who thrive on it as well.

I understand that using canned dog food is a safe, proven way to feed. I personally also use this method. However, there are A LOT of members who dont. Are they wrong for not wanting to used canned dog food? Absolutely not! So what harm is there to try to better understand how these homemade diets could work and be more healthy for these owners skinks?

Some people just enjoy cooking for both themselves and their animals. No harm in that as long as it is done correctly.
I am doing this for my entertainment and to learn a little more. As stated above, I had a theory that these diets would not work out to have appropriate levels of calcium and not have the recommended C:P ratio. But my main interest is how much calcium supplement is actually needed? This is a question that has been asked many many times over on this forum and no-one could give them a good answer. So why not look into it and see just how much calcium would be enough?
Brad
User avatar
Fatal_S
Take Flight
Take Flight
Posts: 8335
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:40 pm
Country:
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Contact:

Re: The dreaded "Diet Thread" and calcium

Postby Fatal_S » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:05 pm

Wow, the results are pretty mind-blowing. I'll leave it for Brad to announce.
Melanie J. Pratt
www.MelsExotics.ca
Currently living at Mel's Exotics:
BTS: Northerns, Caramel Northerns, Meraukes, Irian Jayas, Silver Tanimbars, Yellow Tanimbars
AFTs: Wild-Type, Striped, Amelanistic, Caramel Albino, Patternless, White Out
California Kingsnake
Dumeril Boa

Return to “Advanced BTS Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests