60/40 ratio for Tiliqua gigas?

[Dakota]

Okay, I have been in suspicion that Meraukes, Indonesians, IJ's and any species of Tiliqua in Papua, or an island off of Papua are more carnivores than vegetarians. There's something I've been wondering lately, that I would like to get some opinions on from others.

It is accepted that Blue-Tongued Skinks are opportunistic omnivores, correct?
What I've been wondering is: the islands that make up Indonesia are close to the equator. I'm wondering if the 4-5 species of BTS that come from these islands aren't used to eating more protein in the form of meat and insects than plant-matter? Might this be why it can be harder to get them to eat their vegetables and greens than their Australian counterparts?

I'm not saying meat is more abundant since they are closer to the equator, I'm saying they are both abundant.. both flora and fauna.. but which would they choose first? Meat or veggies? If you put 50% vegetables and 50% meat in front of one, in which is it in the wild or close, which would they go for? It is sorta like a "Candy vs. Carrot", but they get to choose it from the wild, instead of hiding it, why don't we offer it separately and let them choose like they do in the wild?

My hypothesis is that they are more carnivorous than vegetarian, such by observation I've made with my crew now, and my IJ I had for many years before now. I am more on the lines of the ratio of veggie to meat is around 20/80 or 10/90, but that is only my observation from my groups, but others that keep Tiliqua gigas have noticed as well.

I would love to hear your opinions and why you feel the way you do. And if anybody has access to studies on this subject, or has firsthand knowledge, we would love for you to share. Again, this is only pertaining the skinks that are found in Papua or surrounding islands but all opinions are accepted.

Thanks!

[sdraiders619]

Imo in the wild some may be more carniverous but they also have a lot more room to get exercise. Captive breed skinks don't have that same luxury usually. So feeding an almost all meat diet may be detrimental to their health. Also the meat they eat in the wild usally comes from an animal or insect that eats a lot of plant matter. While usually the meat used in captivity hasn't been grown on the healthiest of foods.

[Richard.C]

i dont know where you got this info dakota

ill start by saying this,alot of gigas types and ij and meraukes in particular hail from climates like northerns in australia,hence why u find some aussie species there,eg frill necks and some indo species here,green tree pythons,mangrove monitors ect

just because meats abailable doesnt mean they get the chance to eat it,blueys for example are slow and cumbersome lizards when compared to agamids,varanids or even small skink species,unlike those blueys have to include vegetation in there diets to get by

your comparing captives in ideal conditions that get food shoveled down there throat with no need to find food with the dead oppasite with wild animals

they have to contend with boom and bust cycles,years of drought,predators that happily eat them,they dont have the luxury of ideal circumstances

even rainforest species eat alot of vegetation ,take land mullets for instance,they have more agility and power than tiliqua,lots of meat sources in there habitat,but low and behold science has found they eat predominantly vegetation in the wild

why??????
as its abundant,they dont have to over exert themselves in finding it,they can stay close to cover and reasonably safe eating that,its a safety thing

meat eaters usually have the dentition to show they eat meat,check the teeth out on agamids and varanids as aposed to tiliqua

u cant base diet in the wild on what captives do,captives can often be picky,picky wild ones are dead wild ones

theu are oppantunistic omnivores,yes they like meat,but in nature vegetation plays a huge roll in there survival as with out it,most would perish

[Scotts1au]

What you need to do is chew verges up in your mouth and feed it the blueys like a bird feeding its babies - from your mouth. Trust me.

[Susann]

Hmmm, I think you bring up an interesting point Dakota; I guess I hadn't thought of it like that before. I actually think it's a good point.

And Richard, to be fair, Dakota is not trying to cite facts or studies, he is just "wondering out loud", putting forth his thoughts and wondering what others think about them.

I don't personally think Indonesian species necessarily eat 80-90% meat in the wild, but they may well have a higher intake of protein in the form of abundant insects, small mammals (caught or carrion), birds/bird eggs, and maybe even small reptiles.
The problem is that nobody has yet to attach a camera to a BTS to see what they eat in their natural habitat, on the Indonesian or Australian islands ...as far as I know. So we really, to my knowledge, can't say if Tiliqua diet is a whole lot different from that of Scincoides species. But I really think you do have a valid question, and I think you are making a good point.

Like I said, I personally don't think that they are predominately carnivorous. I think if (nearly) ANY BTS had a plate put in front of them that was half meat/protein, half veggies and greens, many would go for the meat, but far from all. But even though food, both flora and fauna, may be abundant in Indonesia, it is, as Richard says, still a matter of finding and catching it. It does still take effort, and there is an inherent risk with walking around looking for food in the middle of the day. BTS are very slow, not very good "hunters". I would guess that the protein they do eat is mostly the stuff that can't run very fast (the slower, non-flying bugs, chicks, eggs, worms/larvae, snails), or stuff that just "happen" to come close enough that a BTS can get a hold of it (in this case I think a hungry BTS would grab anything it can swallow --and if it's too big, might even work at it for a while). But honestly, I do think your logic may be correct to some degree, because the more there is, the bigger the chance that it's going to come walking by your nose.

I don't know how many thousands or millions of years BTS have been living in that area with abundant flora and fauna. My "hypothesis" would be that if they truly were that carnivorous "at heart", they would've evolved more carnivorous traits. I think we would be seeing some forms of Tiliqua with much more evolved teeth, and much more leg-strength, and so forth. In my uneducated thinking, if it was that available to them, and that beneficial for them, nature would show it. But so far nature is showing us Tiliquas and Scincoides living in very different habitats, and under very different conditions, but still looking, acting, functioning, and eating very similarly.

I don't think you can necessarily compare abundant food sources with what an animal goes for on a plate placed in front of them. I do think you are making a good point, and asking a good question, but I think what Richard is saying, and I agree, is that it may not be as simple as it seems when looking at the habits and preferences of our captive skinks.
We try to mimic as much as we can of their natural habitat to keep our skinks happy and healthy, but the way it is in nature is not always the most beneficial for our animals.

If someone out there has experimented and has experience with a higher protein diet for their skinks, I hope that they will speak up.

Dakota, am I correct in assuming that you are thinking of maybe feeding your skinks a much higher protein diet?
I know that you are very concerned with doing what's best, and what's most natural, for your skinks, and I know you are wondering if something, other than what's been done for years, might be BETTER for them. But keep in mind that ANY time you experiment with live beings, you are taking a huge risk. You are quite possibly risking that animal's quality of life, maybe even its life. I think that the people who have very strong feelings for not deviating too much from what's been proven to, not only work but, be optimal for our animals, are probably the ones who feel that this experiment is not worth risking.

So I really hope you will get some responses from people who may already have tried what you may be pondering. And that they can tell you what their findings are, good or bad. I hope people will pipe up with their thoughts on your question, whether they are agreeing with your thinking or not.

But I really don't think there's any need to be jumping down Dakota's throat for posing his thoughts and question. I think those of us who choose to contribute our thoughts, opinions, and/or knowledge, can do so in a non-ridiculing manner. Not trying to back-seat moderate, just a suggestion.

[Richard.C]

susann, i know hes not citing anything in his question,just things floating around in his head

australia bluetongues have equal amounts of meat and flora,blueys arent adept at securing alot of meat though,slow things like snails and bugs/beetles yes,if available,but they arent always available like vegetation

saying if u had a plate of meat and one of veg to choose from is like offering a child mc donalds or a bowl of vegies to eat,they choose what they want,not whats there ideal diet

with the 60 / 40 thing,thats feeding alot of tiliqua more meat than they eat in nature already,i do believe they eat more meat in nature than is often quoted,but ive had wild ones poop on me and most times its full of seeds ect

one time i found a blotchie that pooped and it contained an irredessant green sheen,was like it pooped an easter egg,all around the area were dieing small green beetles like tic tac sized so it obviously indulged on the ready meal

science says the oppasite to dakota with wild ones ,meat making up small percentage of diet

nothing wrong with thinking outside the box,though once you go way outside the basics,thats when you start putting them at risk


look at larger egernia species,wild diets percrntage has been found to be close to shinglebacks,up to 90 percent veg,they are very agile compared to tiliqua,but stay close to home sites,crevices or burrows,the tropical occuring hosmers skink being a great example

[Richard.C]

dakota,try not to get to emotional with how people repond to threads like this,as you always get a hige variety of respones,threads like this are good as u get alot of theories to the topic,some silly some great and alot of inbetweens

end of the day though it helps others to

wild diets to me are survival diets,that they have to eat to survive and increase/replace wild populations,some years theres great recruitment,other years not so great

i dont mimick wild diet,eg my stumpies eat just dog food predominantly,60/40 ish is way off the mid ninety percent range of veg that they eat in the wild,but remember in the wild they eat to survive,if veg isnt utilised they perish,thats one of the joys of these guys,being opportunistic,they have a wide acceptance of food they can get by on,hence the many ways folk have success with feeding what they do

when u look at the many ways people feed them, u see that deep down there similar in principal,not far ventured out from basic husbandry,the more u go away from basic husbandry the less success u have

thats where people start thinking they didnt do anything wrong and lack of uv light is blamed for there down fall,or must be because ive fed dogfood ,people have a bad habit of blaming bad outcomes on something else rather than ther wrong doing

you can try high percentage meat diets ,maybe they could work,but you wont know until u try it over many generations over many years

history shows most success dietry wise with a 60/40 type percentage,a good mix to cover all bases,basic husbandry

end of the day you need to get basics right and stay close to those,but theres many ways to go with still keeping the basics there,basics are the important thing to focas on

it seems odd to me when people think to go left field of the basics

not just food wise either,but with gigas people keep going on about wet season breeders,yet a simple look at people whom breed them shows they mate in the cooler times,dryseason

yet that gets ignored for ion bulbs and other voodoo like thinking
again going left field of the basics

we cant tell them what to do,we can give them the basics and watch what they do,and adjust accordingly

telling them to start mating close to when they should be dropping babies is a classic case of not following the basics

the basics are the results of many decades of keeping these animals,it puzzles me people ignore that ,they prefer to over think things and forget the basics that are flashing right in front of them

[Dakota]

Richard, I am currently experimenting, but doing it safe. I don't want to do anything off the wall until I can get a scale, again. I am thinking of trying small adult mice once a week, and see how that goes.. and if well, I might just stay with it. I see a lot of Indonesians feeding their skinks just about 100% meat, and they are quite successful with it. I also want to give them an occasional extra small chick as a treat, since they are sooo cheap here. I am also looking to go into finding grubs/insects that aren't too fatty, and that range from Papua, but having a hard time finding so.

Just having a look at the bird-life in Papua probably about 60% of them are ground-nesters, and surely they can slip a chick while the mother isn't looking from time to time. I was also looking for some grubs, beetles, ect. from the area. Still searching about it. But I found an enormous grub, but not sure how common they are in Papua.

For anyone that has the Bluey Bible, does it mention anything about the wild diet of Tiliqua gigas?

Thanks

[Katrina]

How did you determine that it is easier to feed Aussie BTS veggies and greens than T. gigas spp? I haven't noticed a difference between species, although I haven't worked with T. rugosa which are the ones that are known to eat more veggies.

I think that hunger would be the driving force here... most captive blueys aren't as hungry, so they will eat their favorites - generally sweet fruit or proteins. If you offered a hungry bluey a plate of greens and veggies, it will eat. If you offer a well fed bluey veggies it might not feel inclined to eat them or it might pick out the favorite parts. Same with people - even if you're not hungry, you'll probably snack on chips or candy if its in front of you whereas you might not be interested in broccoli or carrot sticks.

They are definitely opportunistic... I think that their wild diet is based more on what they can stumble on and can stuff down their throats rather than preferences. This is based mostly on the bluey bible and the few journal articles that are available. I haven't seen anything that would indicate that Australian species (other than T. rugosa) generally eat more vegetables or greens as compared to T. gigas spp.

Remember - insects / grubs / etc in the wild would be generally well gut loaded. Not always the case with the ones available to you. Yes, the bluey bible mentions the wild diets - you should definitely invest in it as well as a good scale.

[Dakota]

You definitely have a very valid point, Kat.. but one thing.. even as freshly imported T. gigas, you still have reports of them not even thinking about eating veggies, rather just "dog-food".. just a thought process here.

And I am getting a Bluey Bible for my birthday/Christmas when the time comes, but until then.. I have to rely on other members. For now, I am just going to increase the veggies to meat ratio to about 30/70 or so, and then start going into the just strictly meat.

Doug, a breeder and distributer of mainly T. gigas spp. in Washington, has experienced with the mice strictly, he had reports of weight gain.. he stated that feeding them every 2 weeks would be a lot more successful and keeping that a good, natural weight.

[Katrina]

I think feeding lots of feeders and insects would be a good but time consuming diet - as long as the feeders are well gut loaded.

Strictly 'meat' wouldn't be healthy... if it is muscle meat. Feeders, such as insects, mice (hopefully ones with bones - pinkies are too fatty with no calcium), grubs etc that are well gut loaded aren't just meat - they have a ton of nutritional value in their organs, bones, and stomach contents. When I read meat, I think of chicken breast - not healthy as a staple. A cockroach that has been fed a nutritious and varied diet is a MUCH different story.

As for the fresh imports eating dog food - that makes sense. They are stressed so food is a lower priority than safety, especially since they can go for a long time without food. Dog food smells and tastes better than just veggies, so they will be more inclined to eat it than veggies. If you're stressed and worries, you're not going to risk your life for veggies... but you might be inclined to nibble on something that smells a lot better. Remember - dogs are omnivores and their food has quite a lot of veggies mixed in - so people feeding a largely dog food diet are actually feed quite a lot of veggies, same with anyone feeding a diet of mice and other well gut loaded feeders.

[Dakota]

Oh no, not meat that you buy from the store, I mean like what you said mice/beetles/ect.

I haven't really thought of feeding a "gut-loaded". They is something else that sparks my mind a bit.

We are going to start breeding mice/rats/ASF's, and if I fed them a correct diet of veggies/meats, do you think that would sustain the whole veggie part of the ratio?

[Katrina]

If you haven't thought about feeding gut loaded, definitely do - there isn't much point in feeding any kind of feeders if they aren't well gut loaded.

As far as sustaining the whole part of veggies... I have no idea. I've never looked into it. Before you experiment too much, I'd do a lot of research and reading. Just changing diet won't give you results - blueys can live on pretty much crap for years, so changing their diet and weighing them isn't really going to give you any information unless you keep this experiment going for decades or until you see ill effects. I remember hearing about a bluey that was rescued from a box where it was eating maggots that were living off the decaying flesh of another reptile that was dumped there... They seriously can survive on almost anything, but survive and do well are entirely different matters. It's not really a great way to experiment - you might be harming them but it could take years and years to see any kind of adverse effects. I'd be very hesitant to stray too far away from what has been tried and true for those reasons - we know various diets that work well but you might try something that is unhealthy and it could take years to realize. They might do well without veggies for a few years until lack of something starts to show outwardly...

I think feeding a lot of well gut loaded feeders (more insects than mice / chicks because the mice and chicks are fatty and wouldn't likely be a really large part of their wild diet) as well as other foods would be a great diet. I think well gut loaded cockroaches would be an excellent staple - but too much work for most, and I'm not sure there are all that many advantages over a dog food based diet other than them hunting a bit. This is all based on my reading and opinion...

[Richard.C]

dakota,if i may point something out,have u looked into exactly what vegetation they eat in nature,its not pumpkin,peas,carrot ect,its mostly leaves,seed pods,fruit if its in season of native/introduced plants,some do raid vegie patches to though,but in a particular season,as its not available all the time,so diet varies alot over a season,in early spring,shoots are abundant ,middle of season its leaves,flowers fruits,later in season seed it changes again,just like vegetation meat changes alot over a season to,birds usually predominantly nest in spring,the way they protect a nest and what even small birds can do to blueys at nesting times tells me avain prey isnt highly on the menu,maybe carcasses,swooping pecking birds making a cammotion equals bluey rumning for cover

just a few extra things to think about,you need to look deeper

[Bluish]

Richard, what is your vegetable to meat feeding ratio?

[Richard.C]

what ever the percentage of the dogfood i feed,as thats my predominant food item,i rarely add veg to the mix,but do give some sometimes,more so for the stumpies

i feed predominantly pedigree 5 types of meat or chum 3 kinds,if not that maybe the beef if thats all thats available,i buy it in slabs as many mouths to feed makes it more economical

[Richard.C]

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this is off a beef with marrowbone can of pedigree

remember im odd in that i feed predominantly this, most add veg to this for every meal,even supplements,but as u can see it alreadu contains those to

[donkeybuff]

I only have 1 Indo, but he will voluntarily eat greens without any dog food in the bowl.

[Dakota]

I have 6, kept 7, and none do. I only feed 1-2 tablespoons a week to each.. but that is only my observation.

[Scincoides]

Anyone with a bluey bible handy, does it specifically mention anything about wild diet of T. Gigas species?