Phosphates in dog food

[iLoveMyLizard]

Ok, so I would like to hear some opinions from others regarding phosphates in food for reptiles, namely dog and sea food.

I was browsing and saw a user on another forum (Infernalis) debating with another regarding this issue, his argument was as follows:


"So let me if I understand this correctly, you are trying to say that the same phosphate ingredient used to make laundry detergent is not going to have any effect on the kidneys and livers of small reptiles, not even after long term exposure??

Tell that to the litter of baby snakes and my dead Bosc who were unfortunate enough to eat prawns and fish treated with that same chemical...

Consider this mate, how many geckos would it take to equal the mass of one larger breed dog's liver?

How many baby Natrix would it take to equal the mass of one human liver?

Since this thread is about Pogona, just how much exposure to this Phosphate do you think they get in the outback?

The point I am making here is that our organs are much larger and can handle trace amounts of toxins with little ill effects, however herps are far more sensitive to exposure than large mammals are.

I did not enter into that research lightly, My collection was dying, and I had to get to the root of the problem, and YES I paid for post mortem lab work.

So be thankful that I care enough to publish my findings and share them with others."


Now im not saying his argument is entirely correct, but it has got me thinking and since reading information (admittedly on a monitor site) has left me a little skeptical (I know the amount of people who feed dog food primarily without issues).

Here is the resource I was referring to:
http://www.savannahmonitor.co/stpp/

*QUOTED DIRECTLY*

"Are you poisoning your animals??

Sodium triphosphate (STP, sometimes STPP or sodium tripolyphosphate or TPP,[1]) is an inorganic compound with formula Na5P3O10. It is the sodium salt of the polyphosphate penta-anion, which is the conjugate base of triphosphoric acid. It is produced on a large scale as a component of many domestic and industrial products, especially detergents. Environmental problems associated with eutrophication are attributed to its widespread use.

Used in detergents!

The majority of STPP is consumed as a component of commercial detergents. It serves as a "builder," industrial jargon for a water softener. In hard water (water that contains high concentrations of Mg2+ and Ca2+), detergents are deactivated. Being a highly charged chelating agent, TPP5- binds to dications tightly and prevents them from interfering with the sulfonate detergent.



Also used in human food, dog/cat food??



The uses of sodium tripolyphosphate also include using it as a preservative. It can be used to preserve foods such as red meats, poultry, and seafood, helping them to retain their tenderness and moisture. Pet food and animal feed have been known to be treated with STPP, serving the same general purpose as it does in human food.

This is another good reason to refrain from feeding dog or cat foods to monitor lizards. It contains the same chemical additives as most frozen sea foods.

Commonly posts will appear on the forums about feeding canned or packet dog food to monitors. On a recent trip to Wal Mart, I read the ingredients on several different brand names of dog foods, Virtually all of it contains Sodium Tripolyphosphate. It is very harmful when ingested repeatedly by reptiles.

Feed only certified chemical free foods

This is more than sufficient reason to avoid canned goods and pre-packaged seafood items, why would anyone want to feed their lizard detergent phosphate??
Quoted excerpt from material safety data sheet.. ( http://www.bestcool.com.hk/newsview.asp?id=116 )

Swallowed - If ingested in large amounts, nausea, vomiting and diarrhea are probable. Moderately toxic by ingestion. Poisoning may affect the blood calcium level.

Prolonged contact may be irritating. Slightly toxic by skin absorption.

Burning sensation to nose, throat and eye. May cause sneezing and coughing."

Thanks for reading and any input would be appreciated, looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

[Linnea]

some of my opinions, maybe theyre not very good though.....

note that also veggies are full of less fun things for looks, freshness and all that, even if it says eco (eco and grown right next to the road is one of the major scams). and theyre also handled in facilities where detergents are used sometimes, and freighted by car and boat and in airplane environments. especally if in a colder country that imports a lot. so in that case theres a cause of concern for skinks as well.

so - what would we do if insects could contain these detergents and the veggies treatment stuff too? - but they do, since they eat a wide variety of things D:

meaning, even if you feed dog food and veggies with harmful substances in, or insects that contain them, as we live today we are practically bathing in stuff like that - more or less by choice. im not sure how to handle that in any other way than to support local veggie sellers and keep buying dog food of origins i know, and buying directly from local butchers.

im wondering - these substances, are they used in detergents in large facilities world wide or just in some places?

it is over my ability to dicsuss the actual substances and their level of harmfullness x.x sorry.

[Richard.C]

id by willing to bet that the bosc monitor wasnt kept correctly,conditions wise,rather than diet,any monitors not kept right struggle to thrive,to me,blaming other things masks the actual cause,most dont like to accept its there mistake

to easy to blame dogfood,lack of uv lighting ect when animals havnt been supplied the enrichment they need,monitors not kept right dont grow to there potential,they are short and fat and usually die because of the conditions not supporting them

id never take 1 bozos word that its bad cause his bosc died ect,thats unfortunatly common with alot of monitors as they arent kept right,not talking diet either

[Richard.C]

the lizard in my avatar,has been chowing down dogfood with me since 1995,was adult when i got her,and been captive for gawd knows how long before i got her,fed dogfood also,she has lots of babies still,my most consistant producer ,to me,if dogfood was so bad for reptiles,she would have keeled over years ago,probably not priducing healthy babies that are also breeding now

[iLoveMyLizard]

Some good points guys. Im in no way saying we shouldnt feed dog food, but thought it was rather interesting. However, surely this stuff isnt exactly good? Im yet to check a label from one of my cans that I feed (butchers and caeser) and with a varied diet, is a little thing to worry about, but again, what exactly are we feeding our pets? Its sad to think companys will outweigh ingredients to make profit, especially for our pets, be it mammals, reptiles or whatever.

PS - I always wondered about that gal in the picture Richard, has such a mysterious face. Is she a blotchie?

[Richard.C]

yep,shes a north east victorian alpine blotch

[El Lobo]

...what exactly are we feeding our pets? Its sad to think companys will outweigh ingredients to make profit, especially for our pets, be it mammals, reptiles or whatever.

It's nothing new for pet foods to have contaminants in them. This is from 2007 affecting some of the biggest brand names in the market.

http://www.fda.gov/animalveterinary/saf ... 129575.htm

Phosphates are commonly found in drinking water as well.

[Lea]

Without it, the protein would break down and rot. Not a good selling point for tinned food
Phosphates, including the tripolyphosphates, are naturally occurring, therefore consider a safe compound to synthesise and use as a food preservative, since they are found in most foods anyway.

If you are concerned, just cook the dog food- Triphosphates break down after the application of heat.

[Spankenstyne]

For what it's worth for a little background, Wayne (aka Infernalis) keeps (or at least kept) his monitors in massive enclosures with deep natural soil, logs, rocks, stacked basking sites with high temps. He even had grass growing in there. The conditions imo aren't likely the cause in his case and he's gone to the length of paying for lab work to find the cause of death so he should be given some benefit of the doubt. I do think the laundry detergent argument is irrelevant, it isn't necessarily a harmful ingredient and as noted is found in nature and is actually said to be an essential component of our diet in small doses.

I don't doubt the results he was given, but I believe that he may be making assumptions on the cause. I believe it's more of an issue with excess build-up having occurred from a heavy diet of treated seafood, quite possibly from imported seafoods coming in from countries that don't have the same quality control to ensure it's not used in excessive quantities. The common denominator between his monitors and snakes was the seafood, I don't think that the dog foods played any significant part.

[iLoveMyLizard]

Some interesting thoughts and facts, quite interesting to find that its in our water too!

As stated, he takes excellent care of his monitors and conditions are kept optimal, but I must agree that the sea food probably had more of an involvement than the dog food. I personally prefer to use fresh turkey mince and freeze it, or feed most while in date, but found this to be rather intriguing considering I did feed dog food and know the majority of others do on here.

I was also unaware that it was a preservative, but indeed can now see why it is contained. I did look on a label of a few brands here in the UK, winalot, chum, and some other low quality foods as the local store didnt have any quality food left in stock, and did not find them printed on the label. I know this has been dicussed alot but is there any evidence that shows brands differ in contents from country to country, and if some countries need not state some of the ingredients?

Since phosphates are naturally occuring, is there any way we can compare the exposure in foods to those in the conditions of natural habitats, without field research?

[tylociraptor]

I agree that the sea food is probably more of an issue. Most fish are a risk for even humans to eat, some species having higher mercury content than others (sharks for instance), and bottom feeders like prawn can pick up all sorts of nasty parasites and ickies. Dog food is a fine staple(for blueys), and I don't know that a single phosphate would be the cause of death... Just because an ingredient is in one thing we wouldn't eat, and one thing we (or our pets) would, doesn't necessarily mean it's dangerous. There are plenty of safe to eat things in all kinds of different products, edible and not!

For the record Bosc's / Savannah Monitors (in case any US folk didn't know they were the same ) are almost entirely wild caught. Unless he got his direct from a breeder, no matter how well it was cared for, it could easily have had internal parasites and other issues that caused it's death. They are also very sensitive to care regiments as well, so if the humidity or heat was too high/low for too long a time, or if it was unable to properly thermoregulate (I've heard at least 2-3 feet of soil is imperative for Bosc's)... There are SO MANY things at play here that suggesting that just one chemical was the issue.

I'd bring up the issue of why is he feeding pre packaged fish to snakes, instead of sticking to rats/mice/chicks bred as specifically snake food that have been fed a balanced diet and therefore are full of nutrition, as well... :X Again, so many factors...

[Richard.C]

Yeah,more puzzling is feeding packaged fish to a monitor,especially a non aquatic type,thetes alot more to monitors than deep substrate and a hot basking spot to

Wild caughts can do great in captivity if given the options suitable to them,even when fed dogfood suprisingly enough

[iLoveMyLizard]

I disagree in the conditions the monitor was kept in, this guy preaches monitor care and am sure he has learnt his lesson from the sea food.

Tylo, There are also fish eating snakes like garter snakes, not all snakes are fed entirely rodents

As for boscs, in the UK most are captive farmed, but you can find CB boscs, not sure what its like on the other end of the pond.

I dont mean to scare anybody, and say to not feed dog food, as it is a good staple and can help a picky skink eat their veggies, but as said, more intrigued than anything.

As for the seafood being fed to monitors, Its apparent people do things ALOT differently, more so when varying from country to country. As i understand, in america a large part of a monitors diet is rodents, whereas in the UK, the majority of people feed primarily insect (alot of), rodents, once a week, prawns occasionally and egg as treats and snails. Its interesting that the UK also frowns upon any heat source being used without a thermostat, whereas in some places, people dont know what they or think theyre unnecessarry.

[Richard.C]

Mostly fed rodents in australia to

Captive farmed often means wildcaughts,its a term used to make wild caughts legit in some areas,though more indo types,but i think they collect gravid ones,get the eggs then ship the babies,or just collect babies in season,the amount that come in and have in the past is way to much to be legit bred ones

The cost in just maintaing large monitors can be high,reproducing them in large amounts higher again,exporting them for peanuts doesnt warrant the work involved,if they were more expensive to buy,more people would breed them

Unfortunatly there a cheap replacable pet trade reptile bought on impulse,alot die as they arent kept how monitors should be,if kept right they are a ton of work to keep,rewarding,but a ton of work

Monitors are amazing reptiles