Decoration disinfection, maintenance, substrate, water...

[EverydayThor]

Hey everybody,

time for another number of questions before Loki will join the family. Sorry, I've got so many but the downside of reading a lot is that more questions come up than are immediately answered

1) I've been reading a lot about disinfecting collected wood and rocks for vivs. What about shop-bought half logs, cork bark, hides etc. Do I need to soak them in bleach for a long time first or would I only wash and dry them? How do you "quarantine" new items? Can slate go in the oven or is there also explosion risk?
2) Cleaning and maintenance: How do you clean your decoration and how often?
3) Substrate: Loki will be a Northern, so not too challenging with humidity. I've been looking into a substrate of orchid bark with Zoo Med Eco Earth (3:1). Would that be a good one? How often do you change your whole substrate? And does it need to be disinfected in some way to keep critters out?
4) Would it make sense to mix in Aspen Shavings into the substrate blend? Depending on replacement frequency, the substrate costs for a 5x2ft viv would be quite significant... so having a good share of Aspen might bring the costs down.
5) Orchid bark comes in coarse and fine. What do your BTS prefer? What's easier to burrow in?
6) Where do you keep your BTS while cleaning the viv? If I take everything out and need to soak it first, this would take an extended period of time. How do you make sure all is good during this time?
7) Some people recommend a smaller water dish (to avoid the BTS pooping into it), some people say it show be a large and shallow one. What is the way to go?
Is it necessary in the UK to use a water conditioner for tap water? Our water is quite hard so it might be reasonable?
9) Reptile courier vs pick up - The breeder is approx 2.5hrs away. Would it harm the BTS in that time to be transported in the car? What would he need during transit? A tub and heat pads? What size? Any substrate, something to hide, water? Or would a reptile courier be the better choice?

I think that's it with my questions for now. I appreciate all of your support!
Thanks a lot
Thor

[MeepyMeeps]

I would definitely recommend washing and bleach soaking store-bought items as they have been sitting on shelves along with people touching them. Washing first, then bleach soaking helps make sure they are as clean as possible for your pet. The simplest way is to leave them in a water bleach mixture, after you've washed them, for about 10 minutes then letting them air dry.
The easiest way to try and squash the possibility of critters and the like in wood and bark substrate is to bake it. I use forest floor and simply placed some in a baking dish and baked @250 for around 20min or so. You can go for more just make sure your substrate doesn't get too dry before baking again to make sure it doesn't get burnt.
Water dish size is kind of preference on you and your reptile. Smaller will (mostly) keep them from jumping in and takin a dump but some do like take a nice soak now and then so, like I said, it's up to you and Loki.
If your buying from a breeder they should have the necessary setup to transport the reptile (container with holes, heat pads, packaging, etc. If you drove them it's just a matter of making sure the vehicle's temperature is comfortable and the box is secure. Reptiles are shipped in relatively small containers and boxes with lots of packaging to keep them from being slid around too much and staying comfortable.

[kingofnobbys]

I have a brace of Eastern BTs who have been living very happily for near 10 years now on a bedding made from

course grade Kritters' Krumble https://www.petbarn.com.au/kritters-kru ... -20-litres
mixed with expanded then dried coco peat https://www.bunnings.com.au/brunnings-9 ... k_p3023170
and I mix in gum tree leaf litter ( I have an endless supply of this from my mature Bluegum that's in my front yard and continually drops leaves
( I simply collect the leaves as needed off my front lawn and path , twigs and bits of bark included )
and mix the lot with the krumble and coco peat .

If you have access to dry leaf litter, so long as the plant is non-toxic , it's a great material to use mixed with a skink's bedding.
Careful with substrates that are dusty, gritty as it can cause respiratory issues ( sneezing , blockages in the nasal passages ) and irritate the skinks eyes .


My bedding is about 3 inches deep.
I swap out my bedding once a month and remove any soiled or damp bedding as soon as I spot it. It's all composed for my garden.

My current tanks are 4ft x 2ft x 15" tall HOME MADE timber tanks made from plywood ( lined under the bedding with loose laid ceramic floor tiles ( keeps the timber dry and clean), and I use a Philips par38 80W spot to create my basking spot and temperature gradient, and 26W UVB200 globes in Nano Hoods to provide UV at the basking spot and in the warm zone.
Basking spot air temperature 35 degC , warm zone 30 degC , cool zone 26 degC.
I have two Jumbo sized HubbaHuts per tank , one doubles as the basking spot , the other is in the cool zone.
https://www.reptilecentre.com/zoo-med-h ... 007008.htm ( make sure to remove the staples entirely that hold the advertising card to the hide as people have reported reptiles getting their nails snagged and even some very nasty cuts on the tummys of reptiles when the stables have not been removed).


A northern will like a basking spot about 38 degC and warm zone maybe 33 degC, as they are evolved for northern woodlands and sevannahs in tropical northern WA,
https://bie.ala.org.au/species/urn:lsid ... a873c0cc51
the NT and northern QLD ( roughly if you draw a parallel through Broom across to Townsville) everything north of this NTBs natural range.
NBTs only experience two seasons :
VERY HOT HUMID summers ( southern monsoon ) from October to about April
HOT dry winters .
If you want to get a handle on the climatic conditions in their natural range the Australian BoM is your best place to look : http://www.bom.gov.au/ pick a town and you can pull out the climatic conditions and historical information for that place ( temperatures ( max , min, avg , UVI , rainfall, % RH , etc).

Water - I use tap water.

In the wild , the only permanent water sources are billabongs ( in dry rivers ) and manmade bores ( artesian water ) and farm dams (for cattles). Your skink will cope OK with "hard" tap water , the calcium in the solution in it will be beneficial.



My water dishes are extra large fake rock ones that are shallow and I replace the water every few days , more often in summer , they sit on a concrete paver , this helps keep the bedding dry and my skinks can't burrow under it and upset / spill the water .
My skinks have porcelain food dishes that I place their salad and their live insects in ( except the crickets who are hand fed to my skinks ).
I give my BTS a diet based on this : https://www.completecritter.com/blue-tongue-skink.html , only changes I make are I never give mice and I never use dog / cat food to my skinks.
My preferred protein sources are
BSFL , silkworms, superworms, crickets and occasoionally woodies and occasionally commercially breed food snails and hard boiled eggs.
The Completecritter guide applies only to ADULT skinks, baby and juvenile skinks need more insects (protein) while growing in their first 2 years.

I give a small feed of live insects each day & salad each day. Young skinks get insects EVERY day and are offered salad, the preference is they get lots of protein and dietary calcium.

If you are buying a baby NBT or juvenile NBT , consider starting it off in a plastic tub that has see through sides , this will make it easier for it locate any live insects you give it to eat .


If the furnishings comes from a pet shop , it'll be fine.
To sterilize timber and plastic and stone (and ceramics) I us F10sc diluted 1:250.

[EverydayThor]

Thank you so much for your answers! I'll go through the things you mentioned more or less from top to bottom:

It makes total sense to wash and bleach soak new items in the beginning. If they are okay with only 20min, that seems more doable. For some items I saw hours or days, that seemed a bit too long for me (for new items).

Baking 90l of substrate will take ages - is that realistic? Even if I pile it on a baking dish (which increases the required time), it would still take several hours of back and forth until all has been baked.

The water dish being a subjective thing is good. I'll go for a bigger one for now to allow soaking and will consider changing to a small one if it becomes only the poop place I'm planning to place it on some slate or a tile, so similar to the concrete paver you mentioned.

I checked with my breeder and I will get what I need for the trip, thanks for the hint. Didn't think of asking there first.

Kritters' Krumble is not as common here but other substrates based on coco husk / coir are readily available. Any particular reason for this particular brand? Would the coarse one still be fine for a Baby NBTS?
Monthly changes of 90l of substrate will be quite pricey. Am I missing something here? This could easily be the biggest running cost driver for a BTS? The only thing I can find with nice prices for bigger volume is Aspen...

I'll go with some half logs like the Habba Hut as well Just hope they are not too huge for baby Loki to feel safe.

The water conditioner is not only for the water hardness. I'm quoting: "The purpose is to remove chloramines and chlorine, detoxify ammonia and nitrates and prodide the essential ions and electrolytes that help animals thrive. "

One question did not get answered yet and it would be great to get some feedback on this one as well:
Where do you keep your BTS while cleaning the viv? If I take everything out and need to soak it first, this would take an extended period of time. How do you make sure all is good during this time?

Thank you guys SO MUCH!

[kingofnobbys]

Thank you so much for your answers! I'll go through the things you mentioned more or less from top to bottom:

It makes total sense to wash and bleach soak new items in the beginning. If they are okay with only 20min, that seems more doable. For some items I saw hours or days, that seemed a bit too long for me (for new items).

Baking 90l of substrate will take ages - is that realistic? Even if I pile it on a baking dish (which increases the required time), it would still take several hours of back and forth until all has been baked.

The water dish being a subjective thing is good. I'll go for a bigger one for now to allow soaking and will consider changing to a small one if it becomes only the poop place I'm planning to place it on some slate or a tile, so similar to the concrete paver you mentioned.

I checked with my breeder and I will get what I need for the trip, thanks for the hint. Didn't think of asking there first.

Kritters' Krumble is not as common here but other substrates based on coco husk / coir are readily available. Any particular reason for this particular brand? Would the coarse one still be fine for a Baby NBTS?

<<< using paper toweling is OK for little baby skinks , a few layers and the skink will be cruising about between the layers in no time.
<<< the finer the coco product the dustier …. dust is bad for skinks.

Monthly changes of 90l of substrate will be quite pricey. Am I missing something here? This could easily be the biggest running cost driver for a BTS? The only thing I can find with nice prices for bigger volume is Aspen...

Careful stuff bought in bulk , lots of it has pesticides and fertilisers in it …. bad for the skink.

I'll go with some half logs like the Habba Hut as well Just hope they are not too huge for baby Loki to feel safe. <<< start with a smaller hubbahut ( so long as skink can curl up under it and turn around without getting stuck , it happens - I learnt this the hard way with a bearded dragon in an fake half log made from acrylic resin , was traumatic unsticking my dragon who had managed to really wedge himself in tight ! good thing I was home when it happened.

The water conditioner is not only for the water hardness. I'm quoting: "The purpose is to remove chloramines and chlorine, detoxify ammonia and nitrates and prodide the essential ions and electrolytes that help animals thrive. "
<<< sounds like snake oil to me . unnecessary , the chloramines and chlorine evaporate very quick , ammonia only there if you are lazy about water changing .

One question did not get answered yet and it would be great to get some feedback on this one as well:
Where do you keep your BTS while cleaning the viv? If I take everything out and need to soak it first, this would take an extended period of time. How do you make sure all is good during this time?
Adults, get to have some freerange floor time , or mummy gives them a cuddle while daddy deals with mess, little ones , a small tub that's too tall to climb out off is fine..

Thank you guys SO MUCH!

[EverydayThor]

I bought the fine grade now, however not coco based but orchid bark. Will check once I receive if it is too dusty. Worst case I'll get another bag and blend it so the issue is not significant.
The bulk was still Pro Rep, so not from a hardware store. I assume, there should be no risk with toxic additives if reptile-specific substrate is used.

Got some smaller hide options as well (some cork bark etc), so Loki will be able to choose if he wants the big and spacious or small and cozy ones. Hope that your dragon got over his or her trauma in the meantime. I can imagine that something like that is not fun for the animal at all!

Thanks for the advice on the water conditioner and the viv cleaning suggestions! Much appreciated!

[EverydayThor]

I got my viv contents today, washed them with hot water and soap and then soaked everything for half an hour in bleach. So far so good.
While rinsing the bleach off, I saw that my brand new Exo Terra hide already started losing its color in multiple places -.- I asked google about it but could not really find much Information (other than that this can happen in the dishwasher as well).

On the Exo Terra Website however, I could find this post:
http://faq.hagencrm.com/details.asp?kbfaqid=27216&uk

Exo Terra recommends a handheld steamer for disinfection. Interesting. Kinda makes sense that hot steam kills all bacteria.
Any experience with this? Does that work only for non porous items? I would assume that porous materials need to be saturated (with bleach) or heated all the way through?
Would it be something like a handheld steam cleaner from Karcher or Hoover?

Thanks a lot again

[EverydayThor]

After drying everything over night, I feel like I'm missing something. If I'm doing this on a monthly base and wait for everything to dry (>24hrs) before I put it back in, Loki will be hideless for a day. Some pieces are non porous and can go back quicker (even though I'm still fighting to get the bleach smell off of the items) but all that is Wood will take ages to dry (and in the UK the sun is not out that often to dry outside...).
How do you guys do that? Let it dry in the enclosure and use it as a humidity boost? Or bake all Wood in the oven (which I might consider anyways as the pieces are swimming and not properly submerging on top of the other things).
Thank you!

[kingofnobbys]

I think you are over thinking this .

If the bedding is reptile specific, clean in a sealed bag or box when you buy, all this pretreatment before using is a waste of time.

Skinks get by very nicely in the wild in natural leaf litter, fallen branches and twigs , amongst rocks and even in drain pipes along roads, around houses, and in people's sheds and gardens.

All this hypercleanliness is just silly and sets up a skink with next to no active immune system who's more prone to getting sick.

[ellbanger]

I'm a newbie at this but I think you're overthinking things.

In no way do you need to bake or otherwise disinfect the bedding. If it comes from a reputable producer/manufacturer, you're all good, straight outta the bag. If you were collecting from the wild then it'd be a different story but AFAIK, th bag stuff is fine as is. Never heard of anyone having a problem with it.

If you've now baked, bleached or otherwise disinfected the hides etc then you're good. I don't bother doing a full disinfecting regimen for store-bought stuff, I just wash and rinse in warm soapy water and leave to dry before putting in the tank. The only reason you'd need to continue doing a full disinfect at each viv-clean is if you've introduced potential sources of parasites. If it's just been your clean lizard, bought from a reputable source, then there's no need to keep doing it. Maybe once every 6-12 months but as I said if you're not introducing potential parasite sources, why go to those extremes?

When I clean the viv, I just pop Basil in a plastic container. Cleaning takes maybe 10-20 min tops, he's not gonna die.

Water dish size, I had a small one but since I got him and he started growing and shedding like a maniac, I've got one big enough for him to soak in when he's itchy. He's never pooped in it, though he regularly soaks in it when he's about to shed or is mid-shed.

Water conditioner, I'm not from the UK so I can't speak to that however my BTS does fine on standard Sydney tap water.

2.5 hours in the car should be fine. They're not delicate flowers, they're pretty tough animals evolved to deal with some pretty extreme weather variations. I wouldn't think twice about driving a Northern a few hours in the car. If you're really worried, put a heat pack (like one of those gel ones that are used for first aid) in the carrier with him. That's on top of a bit of substrate (fresh if possible, don't rely on getting it from the breeder as that has the potential for introducing parasites), maybe a bundle of scrunched up paper towel on top as a kind of "hide." No need for water for a 2.5h journey, they can easily go without and from my understanding get most of their water requirements from their diet. I never ever see Basil drinking from his dish.

[EverydayThor]

Thank you so much, guys! This now gave me some peace of mind. Now I just need to wait for the rest of the equipment to arrive and then I can get Loki next weekend!

[TPceebee]

Hey! you're doing some serious research. I'm impressed!
I'm a little late on this one, but thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

I usually just rinse and scrub dishes with spray on reptile cleaner from pets at home or the like. Only every six months or so will I bleach all the equipment/decoration along with change the bulbs etc.

I've got a bioactive setup now, but I used to spot clean and change water daily and then change substrate and disinfect cage with the same spray after every shed, which usually ended up being monthly. Every 3 months or so I'd take everything out and bleach the viv.

I don't bother treating the water, but I live in Scotland, so the water basically comes straight off the hills here. Nice and fresh! I wouldn't be too concerned with the hardness. My water dish is big enough for my slink to fit almost his entire body in. Usually he just drinks, but he'll sometimes soak. I've never had a problem with him pooping in it.

For my northern I use a mix of fine orchid bark and zoo-med forest floor soil. You can get bags from pets at home, but it's usually cheaper online at swell reptiles or whatever. I used to use beech chips as I found that aspen would get in my lil' guy's eye and irritated it. I much prefer the soil/bark as I've found that the aspen still dries up their scales too much (you can tell they're too dry by rubbing them the wrong way as their scales start to lift up like fish scales). But that's just a personal preference and you just need to try things out to see what works for you. I wouldn't mix aspen with orchid bark as the aspen tends to go mouldy. You shouldn't be going through 90l... I've found that a bag of 20l orchid bark and 20l soil does me. I've also never had problems with mites in bulk-bought substrate here. Again, swell reptiles does cheap-ish bulk substrate, but I'm sure there are other places.

I let my guy roam around the room when I'm cleaning, as he usually doesn't go too far, but just get a tub and put holes in it.

I would have to transport my guy 4 hours each way to the nearest reputable vet, and would do so in a tub with holes, with a snuggle-safe in one of the corners, wrapped up in a few blankets. I've never had an issue transporting them long distance.

They are really hardy lizards, you don't need to worry about them at all. I know that the first few months you can feel paranoid about getting everything right, but they're not going to suddenly die if something is just slightly off.

[EverydayThor]

Thank you so much.

Yes, I was doing tons of research before Loki moved in. I don't take a commitment to a living being lightly. Loki will be part of our family, so I make sure he gets all that he needs and more. Might be a little excessive at times but I'd rather do it this way than hurting the animal.
My water dish is big enough for Loki to soak now but once he grows more, it might not be enough for him to fit in. We'll see, if he needs it, so far the humidity is easily high enough. The only place he likes to poop so far is my arm

I will follow your suggestions and have a similar cleaning regimen planned. How deep is your substrate in the bioactive setup? Or do you just mean that you have a CUC in the ground? And how to you sustain the CUC when you change the substrate monthly? My mix is very similar to yours (orchid bark and zoo med forest floor) but I used more than 50l bark and 20l soil to cover the ground with around 5cm in the front and maybe 10-15 in the back. Read so often that they like to burrow and that it is better to have 4-6inch deep substrate... So far, the only place Loki burrows in is my T-shirt...
Got my substrate also from Swell or Internet Reptile.

Thanks also for the advice for the transport. Sounds great and the little baby easily made it through the first trip home in a nice little transport boy.

[TPceebee]

Hey, sorry, when I was talking of cleaning the cage that was pre-bio active setup. Now I let the CUC do all the work for me and wipe down the walls and glass every once in a while with aforementioned disinfect spray. My substrate ends up being about 3 centi in the front and 7-10 at the back I believe.

Glad to hear Loki is settling in!

[EverydayThor]

Alright, with these substrate levels I could save around half of the substrate. Will see to that when I change it. Maybe he will start burrowing but so far no signs of that… except for the shirt he loves to sleep in
Need to think about adding a CUC as well. Loki is a good eater and all the good food finds its way back to nature

[EverydayThor]

It's me again... I was wondering what you're using as CUC? I often read that it's a bit more difficult for Northerns as springtails need higher humidity but I could not really really find a clear statement regarding what works well... Thank you

[Dratth]

Hey, i have experience only with more humid enclosures, i have only soil mites, earthworms, little snails and springtails there right now. Just create wet spot near/under water dish or under cork bark piece. If you have live plants, you have wet spots anyway . I tried zophobas worms or beetles too, but be aware, if you have polystyren background and zophobas worms (superworms) there - they will eat it.

[EverydayThor]

Thanks a lot for the feedback. Once I move forward with this, it will be great to have all the information at hand!!

[TPceebee]

Hey, sorry I'm not super active on this forum. For my CUC I've had no trouble with springtails and grey woodlice. I tend to keep my northern at 50-60% as anything lower makes his belly scales too dry.