Experienced keeps/breeders! Asking for input

[DianaBlueTongue]

Hey guys!!!

So I've been mulling over asking you all this for a while and decided now is as good a time as any so here goes

Over on the facebook group there tends to be far more newcomers to blueys then over here. Every single day there are at LEAST 2-3 requests for advice, whether it be for diets or humidity, or housing, or this or that. Because the more experienced keepers tend to frequent this forum much more, day by day it seems it's just more inexperienced keepers advising more inexperienced keepers. I saw someone today advise another member to use Frontline flea and tick dog stuff to treat mites on a juvenile bluey. There are a few amazing folks who readily post and give great advice and I absolutely adore and thank you guys but I think the main reason why so many people are asking on the group itself and so much wrong advice is currently circulating is I the lack of available info on the web itself through searches and whatnot.

I would like to ask all of you experienced keepers and breeders for your input into three caresheets I would like to put together. One for Scincoides, one for Gigas, and one for "Other" blue tongues less commonly kept here in the states. I'm far from qualified or experienced enough to tackle this on my own but am willing to sit down and put them together. Those of you who have put years and year into learning what makes these lizards tick and what also makes them thrive have such a plethora of knowledge to share that I really believe by combining a lot of it into these caresheets it can improve whats known about the proper keeping of bts and give the average and new keeper proper insights into making their own blueys thrive.
Topics to hopefully be included are:
Housing
Lighting
Heating
Humidity
Substrates
Diet or Diets
Handling
Common Diseases/Ailments
Sexing
Breeding

I by, no means, think this is going to be some "cure all" for all the bad advice and mistreated lizards out there, but if in doing so one blue tongue somewhere in the states is given care it wouldn't have otherwise gotten due to lack of info then I think our mission will be a success. There can never be too much info on a reptile available to new keepers.

Included in each care sheet will be a "Myths and Facts" section as well to lay to rest some of the worst advice that still pops up from time to time.

So I know this is a tall order and I don't expect to do this overnight but if those of you who have been doing this for years and years could find the time to shoot me your thoughts in your free time I would really appreciate it. So that's it, if no one wants to contribute that's fine too. Was just an idea. Thanks for any help/advice.

[BlueTonguesOfSA]

Or you could just refer them to an alternative fb group.

Kidding, I'd help.

[Richard.C]

They will likely ignore caresheet/faq and ask silly things still anyways,lol

One thing to be wary of with caresheets is newer folk tend to look at them as gospel,one size fits all and expect it to 100 percent suit them,which no care sheet will ever do

Caresheets are a starting point/the basics to get you started i guess,usually just the creater of the caresheets ideas on the subject,and everyone does things different,a simple look at the responses people have about caresheet here is a prime example,some want to follow it to a t,others try and it hasnt worked for them and they expect the care sheet to be fixed up to suit them

Unfortunatly no caresheets going to suit everyone,and caresheets should never be relied apon to be followed 100 percent,as theres many different ways to do things and often people keeping conditions available to them are highly variable

Caresheet equals basics to look after them,i think teaching newer folk this is more important than making a caresheet for them,as al a care sheet will do is give you replies like,oh but the caresheet says this or that,dont ask me how i know that,lol

[DianaBlueTongue]

That's exactly what I'm hoping to make, Richard. I know folks will still ask questions, sometimes it's better to hear it from the horses mouth then something written down. I don't want that to stop, I like helping people with what limited experience I have and knowledge I've learned from all of you. Some people are shy though, some feel uncomfortable asking people questions, even basic ones. Some people don't even know they can and have only ever heard of caresheets. I think creating a really good comprehensice caresheet site, which im willing to make and pay for, where not only really good caresheets can be found but links to this forum and the facebook groups can be found as well to cover all angles.

Instead of having one persons opinion making up the caresheet though I want to use multiple views on the same topics. Diet, substrates, housing. When someone comes new into a species specific field the more experienced opinions they read the better off they are and they'll be able to form their own educated opinions based on multiple different angles. That's why I ask for the most experienced peoples help, so the starting point is as informative and accurate as possible.

Like I said, I don't intend to solve all the worlds bluey husbandry problems, I just think it would be a good thing to have available as a resource.

[DianaBlueTongue]

And we can pin it on the "alternate group" too Koen! It's win win! lol

[RoryBreaker]

That's the blight which Facebook is!

Other than an instantaneous picture swapping service , it's a very poor deliverer for information.

Forums on the other hand .................

Even when a question is typed into Google, forums are a major part of the list of results.

I'm disgusted how the herp community has virtually abandoned forums over the last couple of years. I hope their Facebook groups drown in repetitive questions from the noobs.

Rant over.

[El Lobo]

That's the blight which Facebook is!

Other than an instantaneous picture swapping service , it's a very poor deliverer for information.

Forums on the other hand .................

Even when a question is typed into Google, forums are a major part of the list of results.

I'm disgusted how the herp community has virtually abandoned forums over the last couple of years. I hope their Facebook groups drown in repetitive questions from the noobs.

Rant over.

[Richard.C]

rory

You do make a really great point though

Looking on facebook i see quite a few guys that used to be on forums that i havnt seen on a forum in years,even dr glen shea posts on a few of the skink pages every now and then

And spot on,google doesnt find any posts in uour search from facebook type pages

[RoryBreaker]

:lol: rory

You do make a really great point though

Looking on facebook i see quite a few guys that used to be on forums that i havnt seen on a forum in years,even dr glen shea posts on a few of the skink pages every now and then

And spot on,google doesnt find any posts in uour search from facebook type pages

You're on facebook?

And you used to be cool, man.

[DianaBlueTongue]

*sigh* all I wanted to do was help folks take better care of their blueys.

And so you know it has nothing to do with facebook, I've bought a domain name.

[Susann]

I guess I'm a little bit confused....
Right here, http://www.bluetongueskinks.net is an excellent caresheet that covers all the basics that can serve as an excellent starting point for any new owner.
Is it perfect? Nope.
Does it cover all the different viewpoints people with experience have? Nope.
Is it a comprehensive place to start? I believe so.
Did the author have enough knowledge and/or help to make it a very good place to start? I believe so.

In addition to the caresheet we also have here a forum, where you can ask questions if they weren't covered in the caresheet or if you are looking for different ways of doing things. You can also do searches on words or topics going back years and years, and that way get opinions and experiences by people who may not even be posting anymore. The two combined provides the best wealth of knowledge and experienced opinions you could ever hope for, in my opinion.

The problem I see with the Facebook-generation is that people are getting so used to the instant answer-mentality. Someone throws up a question, and the people that are on right then answer (whether they are qualified or not, most often they're just repeating other people's answers from before) and the person asking feels he's got what he needed. FB also is usually not conducive to discussing issues, most often all you see are two, three sentence posts of opinions that read as facts, and if someone else posts an answer with a different opinion, it often turns into an exchange of personal attacks.
But enough about my own FB reptile experience...

I applaud your dedication to wanting to provide the best knowledge out there to all who are new to keeping BTS. The thing is, just as has been said, a caresheet is supposed to be a place to start. If you are going to include tons of people's opinions and varying ways of doing things, then you will either have a caresheet that is very confusing, or, in effect, many people's opinions --also called a forum-- posted by you.

The reason I'm not jumping on it and writing down my own experiences and knowledge for you, even if I had the time, is that I personally feel that what we have here is excellent. If I could, I would rather spend the time fixing the few things here that aren't great, rather than start from zero with a new place.
Both Dakota and Larissa (and many others!) have started or done what you are suggesting; why not combine your knowledge with theirs and start adding to what they've already written/gathered?
Just a suggestion.

[DianaBlueTongue]

good grief...I guess never mind then. just thought it would be a nice thing to have more then one caresheet for people to find when they search it on a search engine and to have one that compiles multiple well experienced bts keeper and breeders opinions on the topics I mentioned instead of just one guys opinions on the same things. That's it. I'm not talking about the pros and cons of facebook, or forums, or fixing already existing resources.

I'm not asking anyone to do anything but shoot me their thoughts on the topics I mentioned in their free time. This is something I plan to put together probably over the next year, not over the next week. All the work will be done by me as well as being paid for. It's just ment to be an additional resource to whats already available, a site that's only care and breeding and whatnot based. No forum, no facebook, no posting or chatting. Just a actual website that's easy to navigate that people can search for and find to read about bts related stuff and read things based on things the most experienced folks out there have opnions on if things like forums and facebook groups aren't something they themselves actually like or enjoy engaging in.

You were one of the people I was hoping to get some stuff out of Sue, seeing how you're one of the leading authorities on gigas, specifically meraukes. But if no one wants to and any input I s'ppose Ill just poo poo the idea then, I don't consider myself qualified to do this on my own.

I don't really know how facebook and why its so bad or why is a good thing came up, it's really got nothing to do with what I'm proposing and asking for. I like both forums and facebook, I think theyre equally important in their own totally different ways. But again that's got nothing to do with my wanting to create a website based on bts care.....

[jdheff1982]

I guess I'm a little bit confused....
Right here, http://www.bluetongueskinks.net is an excellent caresheet that covers all the basics that can serve as an excellent starting point for any new owner.
Is it perfect? Nope.
Does it cover all the different viewpoints people with experience have? Nope.
Is it a comprehensive place to start? I believe so.
Did the author have enough knowledge and/or help to make it a very good place to start? I believe so.

In addition to the caresheet we also have here a forum, where you can ask questions if they weren't covered in the caresheet or if you are looking for different ways of doing things. You can also do searches on words or topics going back years and years, and that way get opinions and experiences by people who may not even be posting anymore. The two combined provides the best wealth of knowledge and experienced opinions you could ever hope for, in my opinion.

The problem I see with the Facebook-generation is that people are getting so used to the instant answer-mentality. Someone throws up a question, and the people that are on right then answer (whether they are qualified or not, most often they're just repeating other people's answers from before) and the person asking feels he's got what he needed. FB also is usually not conducive to discussing issues, most often all you see are two, three sentence posts of opinions that read as facts, and if someone else posts an answer with a different opinion, it often turns into an exchange of personal attacks.
But enough about my own FB reptile experience...

I applaud your dedication to wanting to provide the best knowledge out there to all who are new to keeping BTS. The thing is, just as has been said, a caresheet is supposed to be a place to start. If you are going to include tons of people's opinions and varying ways of doing things, then you will either have a caresheet that is very confusing, or, in effect, many people's opinions --also called a forum-- posted by you.

The reason I'm not jumping on it and writing down my own experiences and knowledge for you, even if I had the time, is that I personally feel that what we have here is excellent. If I could, I would rather spend the time fixing the few things here that aren't great, rather than start from zero with a new place.
Both Dakota and Larissa (and many others!) have started or done what you are suggesting; why not combine your knowledge with theirs and start adding to what they've already written/gathered?
Just a suggestion.

+1

I have never used FB as a go-to source for raising reptiles and other animals. It has always been forums. In fact, if this website hadn't had the comprehensive care sheet that it has nor the community, I doubt I'd be successfully raising a NBTS right now. IMO, my success has been attributed more to the care sheet. If the CS doesn't have an answer I am searching for, then I turn to the community. We all asked noob questions when we started, even one's which could have been easily answered by the CS; but, I feel it is in our nature to compare answers to arrive to a resolution. Although, a few odd ones will by-pass the CS altogether and ask the community directly. Luckily, those instances are fairly rare. On the down side, the current and new generations of people are becoming more and more impatient which could ultimately end forums since there almost always seems to be a quicker way to obtain the answers one needs.

@DBT: I don't feel there is anything wrong with you creating a website on BTS care; however, maybe what others are trying to get at is the information needs to be based on your experiences and not borrowed from another website. As of now, this website/forum is the primary place for BTS care. If all your website tries to do is reference this site, then all you are doing is creating another bluetongueskinks.net page. I'm not trying to be harsh or a downer, just trying to convey what others might be thinking.

Good luck.

[DianaBlueTongue]

The caresheet on this site doesn't have anything to do with the people who regularly post here. And like I said, im not qualified to write a caresheet based on my own experience. I'm not "borrowing" anything from another website. I'm just asking for more experienced persons then myself to ad their input. It wouldn't be another bluetongueskinks.net site. It's not a forum, or classifieds. Its just ment to expand the resources already available.

When you research, say, ball pythons care on google like 50 caresheet type sites come up. When you search bts only one or two do. ALL im trying to do is add to that. That's it.

[Fatal_S]

When considering the idea that it's better to have multiple caresheets available, I strongly disagree. Right now one of my friends is looking to get a ball python. She's researching, and has found dozens of caresheets out there. Each one contradicts the others in some way, and it's made deciding on what to do for her setup very difficult. I'm not entirely sure how something as simple as "put snake in dark, secure contain that has a warm spot. Provide food and water" manages to be split into so many different caresheets, but it's not helpful to a beginner - it's confusing.

In a way, I have created my own "caresheet" already - I have a mini pamphlet with just the super basic information for when people are taking home a new baby. It's based on the "this-is-what-you-absolutely-need-to-know" basics, and if the person read nothing but that, the skink could live a healthy, happy life. However, as many people like having more information, I also put in the pamphlet to come here, read the caresheet, and join the forum for even more information. I utilize the great resources already available. IMO it just doesn't make sense to me to re-write what already exists, or to confuse beginners with multiple caresheets they have to compare.

In regards to why everyone is against FB, your OP talked about all the newb-questions and bad advice happening on your FB page. It made it sound like you wanted to create something to address that, though later it sounded like you wanted to create an advanced information-collection on keeping and breeding blue tongues. These are not the same thing. Beginners need simple information on how to keep their skink alive, provided in a way that's stupidly easy to understand. Once they have that, then they can be offered more information. IMO this is where the greatest need for information comes from, and it requires people who can focus only on the well-being of the animal, and are able to provide information in a simple, easy-to-comprehend way. It doesn't need a detailed caresheet, it needs a basic guide, with references to more details for people who need it. The best caresheets, IMO, provide the barest of details.

If you were writing for advanced keepers/breeders, it's much different. They should already know the basics, have a decent idea of the methods used for breeding (one would assume that the type of breeder looking for advanced breeding info has already kept their animals for a few years, and got into breeding once they felt very comfortable with the keeping part of BTS). There is, to be honest, breeders out there who have so much highly-detailed knowledge it makes my head spin. There are breeders who measure everything to the nearest degree (this species needs to brumate at this temp, males wake up __ days before females, this supplement helps). So the amount of knowledge that is out there regarding breeding skinks is mind-blowing. But that doesn't mean everyone deserves access to that knowledge.

Honestly, I'm of the belief that an easy to access "secrets of breeding" would be a terrible idea, because then any idiot with a couple skinks can throw them together and get some of the same results people have been working decades for. For example, any idiot with a few hundred dollars can be a BP breeder now - it takes no skill and requires absolutely no care for the animals. I prefer the method where experts are happy to give you advice once you've proven yourself to be a decent keeper. Up until that point, you'll likely get stone-walled by experienced breeders. If you prove yourself to be an idiot (doing things that are considered bad for the animals/species) you have a long fight ahead to correct yourself before an expert will help you. This method does have pros/cons I admit, but I prefer it over the "everyone believes they deserve to be treated like a guru regardless of behaviour" idea.

Anyway, best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

[jdheff1982]

The caresheet on this site doesn't have anything to do with the people who regularly post here. And like I said, im not qualified to write a caresheet based on my own experience. I'm not "borrowing" anything from another website. I'm just asking for more experienced persons then myself to ad their input. It wouldn't be another bluetongueskinks.net site. It's not a forum, or classifieds. Its just ment to expand the resources already available.

When you research, say, ball pythons care on google like 50 caresheet type sites come up. When you search bts only one or two do. ALL im trying to do is add to that. That's it.

Certainly, you can search for a care sheet for just about any animal and some will have more than others. However, they all generally say the same thing which means the information is borrowed from one care sheet to another. IMO, having numerous care sheets can be more confusing and misleading than having one or two. Additionally, if the care sheet on this site was constructed from the same members who actively post here, I could understand their hesitation. Also, don't forget, people put together care sheets as videos on YouTube. I've seen a few on there regarding BTS's.

The .net site is the portal which contains the BTS care sheet and species information and links to the forums which is their .org site.

Finally, I have to disagree with your comment regarding the CS not having anything to do with active members here. The CS is here to fall back on. Just like our Constitution. If laws are in question, we fall back to the Constitution. Although, the more experienced keepers may not use it quite as often as the lesser experienced, it is still there for them to review.

[DianaBlueTongue]

You misunderstand what I said. The caresheet here wasn't written by the people who regularily post here. But the people who do regularly post here have stated multiple times that the caresheet here is a bit outdated and needs working on and updating. But again, that's not what im talking about or asking for help with. From what I understand someone is working on it to update the outdated info. That's great, this site is great. I know theres a care sheet here. I know what this site is about and what it does. I know theres stuff on youtube. lol. Good grief, Im just asking for experienced minds to ad input to a bts website I'd like to make. Thats it.

This wasn't ment to be a debate. Either people want to help or they don't. I just thought it would be fun to make another bts website and asked for some of the experienced people input to include in it since I don't feel myself qualified to ad my own. lol.

[Bird_Brain]

You misunderstand what I said. The caresheet here wasn't written by the people who regularily post here. But the people who do regularly post here have stated multiple times that the caresheet here is a bit outdated and needs working on and updating. But again, that's not what im talking about or asking for help with. From what I understand someone is working on it to update the outdated info. That's great, this site is great. I know theres a care sheet here. I know what this site is about and what it does. I know theres stuff on youtube. lol. Good grief, Im just asking for experienced minds to ad input to a bts website I'd like to make. Thats it.

This wasn't ment to be a debate. Either people want to help or they don't. I just thought it would be fun to make another bts website and asked for some of the experienced people input to include in it since I don't feel myself qualified to ad my own. lol.

I see no debate. I see you asking for information, and people giving their opinions. You then become defensive because it's not what you want to hear. Making new care sheets will not help a single bit with people asking basic questions. The reason why is pretty simple, THEY ARE TOO LAZY! Plain and simple. A very quick google search will give most people their answer, but that's too much work having to sort through and read the results of said search.

[DianaBlueTongue]

I just wanted to make a fun bluey based website....

[Bird_Brain]

I just wanted to make a fun bluey based website....

Which by what you said made it appear as if you wanted to add it on the Facebook group. There was no mention of you making a website until later after everyone was opposed to facebook. I think that is were the majority of the confusing and resistance came about.