Are these a Tiliqua scincoides intermedia?

[Jesse]

Hi, these Tiliqua are a pure T.scincoides intermedia or are a hybrids?
Thanks!

[Carnivale]

These seem to be the same pictures from here, where the same question was already answered/debated: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=25925

[Susann]

Could we see a better picture of the female?
They look like pure intermedia, but hard to tell for sure, can't see the female well.

[Jesse]

They are the same as the other thread, and I wanted to know why I have to buy one of these baby, but I did not want hybrids

[Susann]

OK, I remember. Seems like most people who know intermedia felt they were pure?

[Jesse]

I hope:)

[jdheff1982]

They are the same as the other thread, and I wanted to know why I have to buy one of these baby, but I did not want hybrids

Who's forcing you to buy these skinks? And what's wrong with hybrids? Hybrids simply offer various traits from both parents. No different than mixed-breed dogs or cats. Sometimes having mix-breeds is better than pure. Often times, the ailments the pures suffer from are nullified by their off-spring when paired with a different breed. But, that's JMO.

[btskinktom]

They look like a cross between a Northern and Eastern to me.

[Richard.C]

They are the same as the other thread, and I wanted to know why I have to buy one of these baby, but I did not want hybrids

Who's forcing you to buy these skinks? And what's wrong with hybrids? Hybrids simply offer various traits from both parents. No different than mixed-breed dogs or cats. Sometimes having mix-breeds is better than pure. Often times, the ailments the pures suffer from are nullified by their off-spring when paired with a different breed. But, that's JMO.

Sometimes crossing has the oppasite affect of that,and in fact makes them alot more vunerable to problems a pure species would otherwise not be at risk from

If you want pure northerns and ones your looking at make u concerned about purity,best bet is to look elsewhere.theres something not quite right about them for me to think they are 100 percent pure northern,that 1st babys head is very boofy to,for a scincoides

I cant say for sure but i have my doubts there 100 percent pure,still think maybe some ij influence in them

[Jesse]

Nobody is obliging me to buy those animals and I don't care about disturbs but I extremely care about the beauty of the animal, for this I want a pure one. and what's JMO ?
So Richard are they pure, for you ? Couldn't be some locality ?

[Richard.C]

Cant guess an animals locality just off looks,needs to have accurate collection data to be a locale animal,i cant say 100 percent if they are pure,nor non pure,but if i was after only pure ones id probably be a little hesitant,just because they dont look fully right to me,whilst they do look mostly northern,i feel theres a percentage of ij in them to,they actually look like nice skinks,first babies head looks massive wide,for a juvie northern

[timisimaginary]

They are the same as the other thread, and I wanted to know why I have to buy one of these baby, but I did not want hybrids

Who's forcing you to buy these skinks? And what's wrong with hybrids? Hybrids simply offer various traits from both parents. No different than mixed-breed dogs or cats. Sometimes having mix-breeds is better than pure. Often times, the ailments the pures suffer from are nullified by their off-spring when paired with a different breed. But, that's JMO.

it IS different than mixed-breed dogs or cats. mixed-breed dogs and cats still belong to the same species. hybrid skinks come from two different species. mixing "breeds" of the same species may increase healthiness or robustness of the animal, but mixing different species usually results in weak and possibly infertile individuals.

[Richard.C]

Can we try and keep on topic in these type threads please,the original poster asked a simple question,not for a debate about the benefits or not of hybrids,perhaps start a new thread if its a topic you want to talk about

[Susann]

I wanted to know why I have to buy one of these baby, but I did not want hybrids

Who's forcing you to buy these skinks?

Before asking questions that can easily come off as condescending, when someone's language doesn't quite make sense or if you're not understanding what is being said, you might want to take a look at the person's location. On an international forum not everyone is located in an English speaking country, and when translating straight from their own language to English (or when using a translator) it doesn't always come across with the same meaning in the end.

and what's JMO ?

IMO = in my opinion
JMO = just my opinion

[jdheff1982]

I wanted to know why I have to buy one of these baby, but I did not want hybrids

Who's forcing you to buy these skinks?

Before asking questions that can easily come off as condescending, when someone's language doesn't quite make sense or if you're not understanding what is being said, you might want to take a look at the person's location. On an international forum not everyone is located in an English speaking country, and when translating straight from their own language to English (or when using a translator) it doesn't always come across with the same meaning in the end.

and what's JMO ?

IMO = in my opinion
JMO = just my opinion

I get what you are saying; but, to be fair, there is a Milano, TX USA.

[nator]

Hi, I'm from Barcelona in Spain, so first sorry about my English.

I'm the owner of this animals. Until now I have decided not participate in this issue because I have posted my own issue a few days ago but now I think I have the right to do it.

I don't know how to link it but everyone can go to my profile and look my first post when I bought them in 2010. You can't see the pictures but I recovery now (pictures 1 and 2). All answers said they were northerns (the pictures are taken in the pet shop).

I'm not an expert or a biologist, just a fan of this beautiful reptiles. The only think I can do is look in internet and in the bibliography I have:

Source bluetongueskinks.net

Northern:

• Clean anterior legs
• Vibrant orange to cantaloupe colored splotches on each side of belly
• Lacks dark temporal streaks—faded light streaks sometimes seen
• Adults are very large weight/mass wise.

I think they meet all these rules

Source "The northern blue-tongued skink" by Paul Horner (I don't write all. It would be very large)

"The largest skink if northern Australia differs from its eastern relative T. s. scincoides by the following traits: a characteristic combination of body coloration and pattern (in particular the wide, yellowish brown to orange coloured zones on the flanks), the number of supralabial scales (normally eight versus normally nine; SHEA 1992). In body coloration and pattern northern blue tongues exhibit a substantial degree of individual and geographic variation. A typical specimen from the Northern Territory shows a light brown to light gray ground colour with a pattern of 5-12 indistinct to sharply demarcated, irregular cross bands. Dorsally these cross bands are usually grayish with black margins and contain numerous black dashes. Most specimens have the cross bands interrupted in the vertebral region."

I think they meet all these rules. In picture 3 you can see 8 supralabials in one baby.

The belly (you can see pictures in my post of 1 week ago)

Paul Horner: "in most specimens the ventral surfaces are immaculate cream, but may be patterned with brown spots and cross streaks in subadult, and occasional adult animals"

Andree Hauschild: "the venter is yellow to whitish, occasionally with a weakly pronounced, brown banded pattern"

So I think a northern don't have always immaculate belly, like mines.

Temporal streak:

Paul Horner: "the head is light brown to light gray and usually unpatterned, although the temporal region may have and indistinct, brown stripe extending from the eye to the ear opening"

Andree Hauschild: "black temporal streak from the angle of the eye to the ear opening absent, or limited to a faint indication"

My animals, have this temporal streak, but very light. Look adults, in babies it is more marked like I see in other babies of intermedia in the forum.

Finally about a cross with IJ: I have very beautiful male of IJ in my house for more than 10 years and he is very different of this animals. One typical trait of a IJ are the carinate scales you can see in the back versus round scales in a scincoides. Look picture 4 and 5. I don't see carinate scales.

I'm not sure they are pure because, like I said, I'm not a scientific or a biologist! But I don't look anything that say they are crossed with IJ. But JMO.

Thank you for all your answers including unfavorable to me.

[DianaBlueTongue]

One of the things I've noticed about true northerns is the vertical stripes running through at least some of the lighter bands across the back in adults, usually towards the middle of the back and back. These are two of my classic girls. Theirs are very dark and go all the way to the neck but don't have to be and from what ive noticed can be present in varying degrees of darkness and contrast.

To the experienced breeders here, was I right to include this in northern traits? When I see animals completely devoid of that vertical striping that's usually what makes me think irian jaya blood is present and I wanna make sure this is a correct observation. Thanks!

In any case, your blueys are gorgeous, what is that white one? Is it a silver tanimbar?

[Richard.C]

hi nator,no need to apoligise for your english,i can understand it perfectly and please feel free to post about anything

first off i could be wrong on purity,they just dont look right to me,theu do have a nostly northern look about them though,which goes against the grain of most northern hybrids which usually show a fair wack of whats mixed in with them,eg typical ij/northern hybrids which show a strong ij resemblence

but most crosses ive seen arent multi gen hybrids,not even 2nd gen hybrids but just a straight cross of a northern of one sex to an ij of the oppasite sex

when i first saw your pics i thought female being mated didnt look quite right but male did,but then saw other pics and thought the other way around and then both maybe not quite right,but didnt rule anything out,i even msged a friend and asked his opinion and he thought similar to original mating pic ti,that female didnt look quite right

i even said it could just be the pics making them appear darker to

with your descriptions of northern traits and ij traits ,thats based on pure specimens of there species,subspecies or non described species in case of the ij

crossing animals of the 2 or any other species to voids that trait description,as some crosses can take the appearence of one type,some look like 50 /50 others may look like the other parent, and thats just with breeding one type over another

if said hybrids are put back over the species they most resemble they can appear close to that species again,do it over a few gens to and yeah,people may be none the wiser,thats one of the sucky things with hybrids and not knowing aninals history,especially long term lines,some hybrids are very hard to actually pick

when i see odd looking ones that dont quite look fully right i always have doubts

in your pics with 4 blueys together ,whats that pale one,one looks like a tanny the pale one has me puzzled,looks interesting though,are they the petshop pics your reffering to

[Richard.C]

20140811_235608-1.jpg

heres an example of how pure northerns can vary

[nator]

Hi Diana and Richard. Yes, I don't know the history of the ascendants of my BTS. And then all I can say are suppositions about their history. I bought they subadults in very known reptile shop near Barcelona in 2010.
I only know what I can read in bibliography without be an expert. Yes, they are more darker than habitual, but I think they are northern. Maybe I only want to believe it!

Yes, the pale one of the picture is a great male of Silver Tanimbar. One friend of mine bought it and I have a very beautiful son or daughter from this male. The other one I think was a normal chimaerea.

Thanks for your answers!