When to be concerned about possible RI?

[krystlep]

Hi there,

Hoping to get some opinions regarding caring for my blue tongue since I am very new to this still (about 6 months old-only had her since november)

Her behaviour has changed and I am not sure if its because of the wether, or if I am doing something wrong, or maybe she just wants to be left alone?
-The last couple of days shes been avoiding the warm end of her cage, after about 20 mins of me turning the heat on in the morning she runs to the center of her cage and lies under the log...all day.
-She has not been eating as much (she still eats but not nearly the amount or variety she normally does)
-Hasn't been as active
-I have noticed that she frequently breathes heavily/ opens her mouth the slightest bit when shes breathing, and if I put her on my shoulder I hear some crackles
-last night before bed i put her in her cage with a towel over her and she was sneezing a lot and breathing very heavily. I turned the light off and went to bed. I haven't had her out today but she is again under the log - haven't heard sneezes and she appears to be breathing okay for now

Vets are very expensive (I am in ontario) so I don't want to take her there for no reason- is this normal or should I be concerned?

Thanks for any help!

[Susann]

It could be completely normal, and probably is. Your whole list of behaviors is textbook for BTS this time of year, except for the crackling. Although that could be normal as well. The hard part without a stethoscope and experience is telling if the crackling is coming from the lungs, because sometimes my skinks have a bit of "crackling" that comes from the throat-area, and I've learned that that is nothing to be worried about.
I know vets are expensive, and not to scare you or anything, but an RI can take a reptile downhill very fast.
You are doing right in keeping a close eye on her, but for now, if you're not taking her to a vet to be on the safe side, I would at least have an emergency plan in place for the holidays, because finding an exotic vet for an emergency is hard enough under normal circumstances, during the holidays it may be impossible.
I would call around to the few (I bet) vets that see reptiles, and ask them for emergency numbers to call should your skink take a turn for the worse.

[krystlep]

Thank you. I have done what you suggested and called some vets. Every one of them has said they charge 100 to see the animal plus whatever medication costs may be. I can take her to a vet tomorrow but I am not sure if I am just being paranoid.

She immediately ran out from her towel when i turned the heat lamp on this morning and went to the cool side of her cage today. She didn't move all day until i took her out at about 2 to feed her. She ate well but i heard crackling the entire time.
When i put her back she again went back to the cool end and laid in the same spot until I picked her up just now. Shes just lying on me right now, not trying to move. And she feels like a little icicle.

Shes not full open mouth breathing or wheezing, but i do hear crackles sometimes and also when she opens her mouth its as if she forgets to put her tongue back in and it just stays sticking out a bit for a few seconds?

I dont know if this is lethargy, or just her wanting to do her winter sleeps (brumate?)

If it is her getting an RI do i leave her basking light on at night? (even though she seems to hate the heat)?

I have never had a skink before so I have no clue what is normal or not...all i know is that this is abnormal behaviour for her.

I'd really love to hear anyones opinions at this point, google just isn't giving me any answers

[Susann]

If it
a) is unusual for your skink (which I know it is),
b) came on suddenly,
c) is persisting,
then it is very concerning.
I can only tell you what I would do, and that is to play it safe and take her in to be looked at. Believe me, I know that is a lot of money, don't think I don't understand, but at the same time I can't, with a clear conscience, tell you that that is reason enough to not take her in, because this is part of responsibly owning a pet.

I'm in a bit of a hurry, I can try to elaborate a little more later, but no, don't leave her light on overnight unless that is the ONLY way she can stay warm. I would ask the vet about this, but personally I would contain her to an area where she can not get too cold --still make sure she has a bit of a gradient to thermo-regulate, but she should not be able to get so cold that she feels like an ice sickle. Either block off the cold side of her tank, or put her in a smaller tub.

PM me if you need more advice as I will be super busy the next couple days ( ) and may not check this thread unless I get a prompt for a PM.
Good luck.

[jdheff1982]

The crackling you are hearing maybe the jaw. My skink makes a crackling every time he yawns or opens his mouth. Doesn't seem to affect him any. Could be just a case of TMJ.

[Toria Dawn]

If it's happening when your skink is eating, my skink's throat bubbles or crackles when he swallows. It seems to be normal as he will swallow and dive right back into the chow.

[Richard.C]

If in doubt id get it checked out,if it is infact a ri,early treatment is best,at worst you get the all clear

What type of bluey is it?

[krystlep]

Thank you everyone for your feedback, I really do appreciate it!

She seems to be more awake. I just fed her, and looking at her face she had some yellowy discharge, but i couldn't tell where it was coming from. It also looks like her face might be shedding? the scales near her mouth are lifting up on one side. She ate a ton though and had been lying in the heat more, seems more alert so I think that's good!

I actually have no clue what type she is (or he). Any ideas?

[Susann]

Looks like a Merauke. Healthy appetite is a good sign. I know you haven't had her for too long and are probably learning what behavior is normal for her and what behavior you need to be concerned about.
A small amount of build-up (dry crust) along the lip-line is normal for some skinks; some seem to always have more or less of it, others never do. A discharge from anywhere else always warrants attention as it can be a sign of illness. I don't see anything in the close-up of her face that looks concerning to me, but it's always hard to say from a picture.
"Crackling" sounds when eating are normal; persistent crackling that is not associated with swallowing can be a sign of illness.

What are her temperatures like, and how do you measure them?
How often do you feed her? Does she poop regularly?

There is a big difference between inactivity and lethargy.
A healthy skink may prefer to sleep or not move if given a choice, but unless their core temperature is significantly lowered, for example during brumation, they should always become active and alert, usually with their head up, when handled or removed from their tank.
A lethargic skink won't move unless they have to, or are made to move. Often when moved they are quick to lay their head back down on the ground, eyes either open or closed.
A lethargic skink will often sleep, or be quick to close their eyes, through big and/or loud disturbances. In severe cases it will keep its eyes closed while limp, or near motionless, through being picked up or handled.
A lethargic BTS is a serious issue.
A skink who would just choose to be left alone to sleep is a common occurrence, a skink that does not become alert when moved is a big concern.

[Dakota]

Awww, look at that poor skink's face. Not smooth like it is supposed to be. I know this thread it pertaining information about RI, but do you know what the previous owner fed him regularly?

BTW, my first BTS died of a RI. I was brumating her, and all was fine (from what I noticed) until I went to spend the night with my grandmother for a couple days, came back with bubbles coming out of her mouth and nose, and lifeless, so unless I over-looked her (and yes, I checked on her every single day a couple times a day), it struck and killed her pretty quickly.

[krystlep]

Thanks for your explanation Susann, from what you have said I am going to go with maybe her just being very lazy these last few days, since she always has her eyes open and is very aware. She has a heat pad under the tank (stays on all the time) on one side of the cage as well as a heat lamp- normal temp is about 95-100, and the cool end of her cage I would say is around 70. I just have little thermometers from the pet store that I use to check the temps with.

Dakota-I've had her since the beginning of November. She eats every day (I know online it says every other day or so but she is always happy to eat and since shes still young I haven't limited her). She generally eats either eggs or chicken, and then green beans, spinach, carrots, squash, peas, potatoes, banana, blueberry, pineapple, etc....And she always goes to the bathroom immediately after eating. She has her routine...
I am not sure what you mean by her face no being smooth, I only noticed the scales around one side of her mouth lifting yesterday. Can you please explain?

[jdheff1982]

Thanks for your explanation Susann, from what you have said I am going to go with maybe her just being very lazy these last few days, since she always has her eyes open and is very aware. She has a heat pad under the tank (stays on all the time) on one side of the cage as well as a heat lamp- normal temp is about 95-100, and the cool end of her cage I would say is around 70. I just have little thermometers from the pet store that I use to check the temps with.

Dakota-I've had her since the beginning of November. She eats every day (I know online it says every other day or so but she is always happy to eat and since shes still young I haven't limited her). She generally eats either eggs or chicken, and then green beans, spinach, carrots, squash, peas, potatoes, banana, blueberry, pineapple, etc....And she always goes to the bathroom immediately after eating. She has her routine...
I am not sure what you mean by her face no being smooth, I only noticed the scales around one side of her mouth lifting yesterday. Can you please explain?

Please take away the spinach! It binds calcium. Not good for these guys.

[Dakota]

You need a more reliable protein source. Beef or wet dog-food should be a good staple. Too much eggs can lead to a biotin deficiency, and from what I read chicken has a very poor calcium to phosphate ratio making it really hard to get the proper supplementation that the body needs. You should also include more leafy greens in the diet, and like John said, spinach should be avoided.

And I know how much they enjoy their fruits, make sure only 10% of their diet has fruit in it. I feed weekly, and I do not include any type of fruit during the winter, but every few weeks in the summer (about 1/2 tablespoon for each adult.)

[Dakota]

And by lifted, when you rub her face, generally you should not feel each individual scale (or barely feel it anyways). And from what a respected breeder said a while back, too much greens can cause them to have scales of a Shingleback (very thick), which is not natural.

Kindly like a pyramided Sulcata Tortoise, only happens in captivity due to too low of humidity and moisture.. but true WC Sulcatas are mostly smooth.

And I am not saying you caused it (because you didn't), I was just pointing out how sad it looked for me.

[krystlep]

I had no idea about the spinach- good to know! I will also look into getting some canned dog food for her, as well as more greens. Thank you all for your advice!!

[El Lobo]

Explaining why certain foods are best avoided is more helpful, particularly to those newer carers.

Spinach has a Ca:P of 2:1 which isn't as bad as a lot of other vegetables. The main reason for minimising spinach is because it is high in oxalic acid which binds with calcium to form salt crystals carried in the blood stream which can in turn build up in the kidneys and synovial fluid of joints.

Biotin deficiency would be rare indeed in any skink unless they were fed an exclusive diet of raw eggs. For further reading there are a few scholarly articles on biotin deficiency to be found on the net.

[jdheff1982]

[quote="El Lobo"]Explaining why certain foods are best avoided is more helpful, particularly to those newer carers.

Spinach has a Ca:P of 2:1 which isn't as bad as a lot of other vegetables. The main reason for minimizing spinach is because it is high in oxalic acid which binds with calcium to form salt crystals carried in the blood stream which can in turn build up in the kidneys and synovial fluid of joints.

Biotin deficiency would be rare indeed in any skink unless they were fed an exclusive diet of raw eggs. For further reading there are a few scholarly articles on biotin deficiency to be found on the net.[/quote]

Isn't that what the care sheet is for? I mean, it's easily accessed on the main page and through the forums.

[Susann]

...I don't want to speak for anybody else,
but I believe that's why El Lobo said it is MORE helpful if you explain...
Some of the information on the Caresheet can be outdated, which is why we like to try to explain things a bit further when people are asking for help here on the forums; this also gives keepers a chance to relate their experiences. For example, on the Food Chart http://bluetongueskinks.net/foodchart.html it says "In Moderation" for both chicken and beef, but we have had some members report cases of MBD from frequent feeding of chicken, which is why many of us tend to stick with beef, lamb, etc. and use chicken "In Moderation". We can't just refer people back to the Caresheet for explanations on everything. In my opinion.

Now back to krystlep.
Your temperatures sound perfect, but if there truly is a case of RI brewing, then the cool side might be much too cold at night, if that's where she has been sleeping. But if it's a semi-brumation, then those temps might be fine; see why this gets so hard when you aren't sure whether your skink is sick or not? This is why we here on the forum really can't tell you what to do or not do when we haven't seen the skink in person, or we don't have the opinion of a vet to rely on.
Your skink might be a little bit young to brumate, in my opinion. If she were my little skink, I wouldn't let her experience enough coolness to make her even think ( ) about brumation. I would make sure the cool side stayed at no lower than 75 F even at night.

Like others have said, don't feed her spinach. I would personally remove the potato too as it is almost purely a starch and doesn't provide a lot of good nutrition; cheap dog foods use potato, rice, and grains as a "filler" because it is much cheaper than the good nutritious items. Personally I also stay away from citrus and pineapple, but there is nothing "wrong" with giving them a small amount as a rare treat.

[krystlep]

It turns out that yesterday my skink began to shed- and shes been working hard to remove it the past 2 days, basically up all day moving around. She appears normal, although I have left her alone for the most part so she can focus on doing what she needs to. I am not sure if it is normal for skinks to behave differently prior to a shed- but I think I will become more familiar with her behaviours as time progresses, and will not be so panicky when she starts acting weird out of the blue. I really do appreciate everyones advice so far however.

As far as the diet goes- I have read the care sheet. I don't want anyone to be under the impression that I haven't made an honest attempt to learn everything there is to know about caring for a skink, but I have received mixed information from multiple sources, which is why I truly do find it helpful to have explanations. And although I haven't picked the caresheet apart completely I can honestly say I do not remember reading anything about spinach being bad, and I was truly under the impression that feeding my skink meat from home would be better than feeding it cat or dog food. I really appreciate getting other peoples opinions, as I have never owned a skink before (nor did I plan to, however I fell in love at an expo and bought her then and there).

Everyones feedback and advice means a lot to me. Thank you!

[critterguy]

Biotin deficiency would be rare indeed in any skink unless they were fed an exclusive diet of raw eggs. For further reading there are a few scholarly articles on biotin deficiency to be found on the net.

Just to give you a hard time from my understanding biotin deficiency would result if only egg whites were fed...the yolk is incredibly rich in biotin to offset the avidin in the white.