Food Discussion

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Katrina
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Food Discussion

Postby Katrina » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:06 pm

I'm starting a new topic based on this post: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22846

I think there was some good points and it is a good discussion to be had, so it is probably better to give it its own topic rather than let it die because it is off topic. :)

Saisaac - thanks for the last post, it explained your position much better.

I don't advocate feeding lower quality foods but I definitely don't go by price to determine quality. I do agree with you - I don't my cats foods with lots of fillers in them and same for my blueys. Neither evolved to eat grains so I avoid them (blueys have been known to nibble on grasses and seeds in the wild, so some grains is part of their diet, but not lots of corn filler!).

I think the point that was trying to be made was that we don't really know exactly what the ideal bluey diet is. We can't replicate the wild diet (and don't know enough about it to try), so all we can go on is common sense, our knowledge of their wild diet, and what was worked for many years. A lot of our bluey info actually is bearded dragon info and is assumed to be the same (or at least started out like that and has been tweaked and modified over the years). There is quite a lot of research on beardies and almost none on blueys.

So, when Brad was saying that blueys thrive on this diet - he didn't mean that they are alive and haven't died, so must be doing ok. He was talking about the best source of information we have on blueys - the guys who have been keeping them longer than most of us have been alive! These people who have been keeping and breeding blueys for decades generally feed canned dog food, maybe mixed with some frozen veggies and always supplemented well. These blueys have been thriving and breeding for these guys on this diet longer than most of us have been alive (let alone kept skinks). And they are living into their late teens or longer and breeding / producing babies consistently... if that isn't evidence of thriving (rather than just surviving), I'm not sure what is.

Ideally, I'd offer lots of live prey, a healthy, varied diet, and all sorts of different foods to ensure we cover all bases. However - I am MUCH crazier and have put way more thought and research into bluey diet than most people. Likely, most people will come, stick around for a bit and figure things out and then eventually stop coming to the site. So, if we tell them to feed variety most will start out with very good intentions. They will buy three kinds of greens, some squash, egg, chicken liver, etc. and feed a meal with all sorts of ingredients. Then, three months later, it will be one kind of green and squash. Then it will be chicken breast and some broccoli... and after a year, those good intentions turn into convenience and the limited diet can cause problems. Chicken breast doesn't have nearly enough calcium. Even if they think they are doing well by adding collard greens, they can't feed enough to compensate for the poor Ca:P ratio of chicken. Blueys have died because people thought they were feed the healthiest possible diet rather than crappy, low quality dog food - and we have learned from that. So we decided to advice a dog food based diet. If people do more - that's fantastic! But it is the simplest diet we can recommend that will ensure a healthy BTS for years. No matter what else, if you feed pedigree dog food we KNOW your bluey will be fine.

Unfortunately, the giant care sheet on the main site hasn't been updated in quite a while. So now we are advising some things on the forum that aren't exactly in line with the caresheet (or are a different take on it). Sometimes discrepancies arise and can be frustrating for new members. The caresheet is an excellent resource but the recommendations on the forum (and the food chart linked on the forum / caresheet) are a bit more recent than the caresheet. Hopefully that helps people understand it a bit better.

Anyway, enough of my typing. Please discuss, a good diet discussion is always valuable. Hopefully I explained things a bit better, but please ask any questions if it still doesn't add up. :) And thanks for starting the discussion, Saisaac - thinking about new foods (like flowers) and questioning things makes us learn and give better advice.
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby xxmonitorlizardxx » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:35 pm

*Looks for Blue Tongue Skink eating dog food in the wild* :hmm:

While I don't advocate feeding dog/cat food, it really grinds my gears when I see people who say that they feed solely dog/cat food. :nono:

I do like how Hurricanejen feeds her skinks though!
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby Katrina » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:41 pm

xxmonitorlizardxx wrote:*Looks for Blue Tongue Skink eating dog food in the wild* :hmm:

While I don't advocate feeding dog/cat food, it really grinds my gears when I see people who say that they feed solely dog/cat food. :nono:

I do like how Hurricanejen feeds her skinks though!


Ok - but that doesn't really give any further information. You DON'T advocate cat or dog food? Really?? Why? I know that in an ideal world we would feed close to the wild diet... but that isn't possible. We don't even know enough to do that safely. And I love feeding live prey and a varied diet (and I feed mine a lot more than just dog food) - but I don't think you have to and I know that most won't. If we need to keep it simple so that the majority of people will follow it (and obviously give other options for those who want to do more), can you recommend a diet simpler, with equal results, that any newbie can follow even if they never log on to this site again? What does Jen feed that is different / better than a good dog food? I like how she feeds as well... but it is kind of like a raw food diet with veggies, not too unlike quality dog foods.

It is fine to criticise (and very easy!), but unless you can offer a better alternative it is kind of useless. It is very easy to find faults in something, but unless you can suggest an improvement (or even expand on your thoughts) it is kind of pointless.

Why does feeding cat / dog food solely really bother you?
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby Mr_Dunev » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:44 pm

Very informative, thanks for taking the time to write it!
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby Katrina » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:56 pm

I found the one link I was thinking of: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19184&p=383536#p383536 It's an old discussion but explains some of the ideas well.

We definitely don't know everything and I questioning things is great. I hope I don't come across as closed minded or trying to advocate one method only. :)
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby Kurt » Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:06 pm

I have a handful of questions so bear with me...

-How often do you guys feed snacks? I only do so maybe twice a month or so...

I've always had a few questions about the ratio of the protein:greens/veggies:fruit. I've seen from the care sheet 40% protein, 50% veggies/greens and 10% fruit.
-Is there a recommended ratio of how much veggie and how much green?
-Is it recommended to feed fruit at every meal? I only feed fruit once per month probably...
-Would someone with a scale mind volunteering to show us a picture of what the recommended ratio looks like? I try to eyeball the ratio but it would be nice to see the proper amounts so I could be more accurate in making meals for my blueys...

Sorry for all the questions and lengthy post and thanks in advance!
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby UroFreak13 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:13 am

The best way i found to do these preportions is to mix in a food processor. Put a little fruit such as banana, buleberries or grapes say a quarter of a cup. then add more vegitables and leafy greens ie: collard, mustard and dandiliong greens. As well as carrots, cauliflower, squashes etc about hal a cup. Finally add approximatly 40% meat prepotionally to how much your making such as: egg, turkey, dog food chicken etc about half a cup. you can then freeze in ice cube trays and use as you wish.
The fun thing about this is
A) you can get it more preportional.
B) they generally eat all of it, not beig able to aboid the greens.
C) you can mix and match each time, just follow the food chart.
Add some calcium and something fresh with this.
As for treats such as meal, or silk worms once a week wont hurt if you have him out and give him a couple.
Hope this helps
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby jasjmm27 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:40 am

xxmonitorlizardxx wrote:*Looks for Blue Tongue Skink eating dog food in the wild* :hmm:


This is quite comical...have you tried finding native Aussie, Indonoesian, or Tanimbar flora/fauna in your local grocery store? I know I have looked...I have even tried growing it (esp Ruby Salt bush, one of the Aspera's favorite dishes in the wild illustrated by autopsy), but I have had no luck...

Keeping these animals in captivity, away from their native habitat will, more often then not, demand a change in the way they live...period...

Dog food has been a great staple for many skinks for many years across many keepers/breeders, adding in some frozen veggies and/or fresh and they should do quite well.
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby jasjmm27 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:41 am

PS...I have seen video of shingles eating roadkill in the wild that looked very much like dog food....
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby Richard.C » Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:09 am

ml ,you tube has sheet loads of wild blueys feeding on someones pet dog or cats food,it happens frequently,they are oppatunists,eat what evers available

ive come across a few wild ones even death shaking dried up dog poop,dont reccomend that as a staple or treat though,lol

i feed solely dogfood ml,have done for longer than you have breathed air,lass in my avatar is older than you and has eaten dogfood that whole time,not sure why it grinds your gears but ill say it again,i feed solely dogfood,hehe

theres lots of ways to feed them,successfully,dogfood works great for me


back onto wild diets,its hard to say what they eat as it varies through out a year and more so over many years,they eat what they can if its available,or they perish,they dont knock it back because its not good for them ,they often dont get to be picky,especially arid occuring forms
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby Ellie_A » Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:44 am

Richard, I'm curious to know what brands of dog food you use. Clearly your skinks and very happy and healthy and it would be nice to know what works for you.
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby jasjmm27 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:16 am

Richard.C wrote:ml ,you tube has sheet loads of wild blueys feeding on someones pet dog or cats food,it happens frequently,they are oppatunists,eat what evers available


I forgot to mention this...thanks for reminding me! :)
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby Katrina » Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:49 am

hot carl wrote:I have a handful of questions so bear with me...

-How often do you guys feed snacks? I only do so maybe twice a month or so...

I've always had a few questions about the ratio of the protein:greens/veggies:fruit. I've seen from the care sheet 40% protein, 50% veggies/greens and 10% fruit.
-Is there a recommended ratio of how much veggie and how much green?
-Is it recommended to feed fruit at every meal? I only feed fruit once per month probably...
-Would someone with a scale mind volunteering to show us a picture of what the recommended ratio looks like? I try to eyeball the ratio but it would be nice to see the proper amounts so I could be more accurate in making meals for my blueys...

Sorry for all the questions and lengthy post and thanks in advance!


This thread may be helpful: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=20387

But don't stress too much - not every single meal has to be perfect. Try to balance it out in the long run, but if some days you feed just fruit or just feeders it is totally fine. I feed snacks whenever I have them on hand, so sometimes quite a few times a month and sometimes not at all. As for veggies and greens - I don't go by any ratio, I just feed what I have on hand so that it is less hassle for me. If I have lots of greens, they get that. If I have lots of veggies, then it is mostly or all veggies. I do try to feed more of the healthier ones (so if I have green beans, arugula, broccoli and tomato I'll feed more of the first two but still throw the others in for variety) but I don't stress too mush. I feed fruit whenever I have some on hand that they would like but not every meal - again, I don't worry too much. No one really knows enough about the perfect bluey diet to make it super scientific and exact. I'm not a very scheduled person so I feed approximately weekly, but it varies. And I feed generally 40/50/10 but it varies as well - I just try to make sure it balances in the long run and that they get lots of variety.

Of course, I put a lot more effort into feeding mine than one needs to - using dog food as a staple can really simplify your life if you want. :)

UroFreak - your method is well documented, just remember that freezing veggies reduces the thaimine and that it isn't recommended to feed all mush / purée all the time. Probably a good idea to throw some fresh stuff in for variety and to keep the jaws working.
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby DrakeLineous12 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:17 pm

I really don't have a problem going to the store just to buy veggies and whatnot for my bluey, convenience or not he needs good fresh food. I feed my dog Innova, which is like the 2nd best dog food available, only because the best (Orijen) is made in Canada and hard to find here in the states. But even with that I have read the ingredient list and I'm not very comfortable feeding it to any other animal.
Going back to beardies, since their diets are so similar I use several bearded dragon foods as a staple. The contents of which generally sticks with the 40/50/10 rule. I do feed the fruits/veggies and protein on alternative days though since the reptile keepers at several zoos I contacted recommended that schedule. Essentially they get the same diet just a little more varied. For protein I only use invertebrates like snails, locusts, roaches, various worms and crickets, besides the treat egg, that I occasionally supplement with a vitamin and calcium powder. It does get a bit pricey and hard to maintain but hey, he's worth it. Worlds better than what his previous owner fed.
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby Lea » Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:32 pm

jasjmm27 wrote:PS...I have seen video of shingles eating roadkill in the wild that looked very much like dog food....


Yes, I've seen it with my own eyes, it does happen! :dead: but endearing, nonetheless :lol:

I prefer to feed fresh meat, but then, I have the luxury of choice of a range of good quality meats and have the time to indulge myself in the preparation of a well balanced meal. I also have a HUGE fresh produce market that sells many of the Asian leaves, herbs and other goodies, that ordinarily you'd find hard to get in a supermarket. Plus, I have a garden enclosure, so growing native things easy. Preparing the food is almost an OCD behaviour, so I admit to fussing over their diets a tad too much, at times.

If the quality of the dog food is on par with the variety I can offer, there is no harm in feeding it. There are many trusted members here, breeders, too, who feed almost wholly on dog food. I don't see their care as any less than mine as I also know every effort has gone in to making sure they are getting what they need, nutrient wise. Dog food is a whole lot easier when you have a large population, too and probably, with large numbers, it ensures everyone gets a little of everything they need, contrary to perhaps a dish I would make, which allows for first served, best fed, if I don't keep my eye on them!

I think my gripes over dog food would stem from a feeling that an owner can't be bothered to care enough to think outside the dog food box. Those are quickly squashed by those dog food feeding owners who clearly do care, have summed up the pros and cons of it and have made an educated, informed choice that this is ultimately what is best for their animals.

Therefore, ML, seeing your somewhat pious statement that you are griped by those who feed solely dog food, without looking into their reasons why, therefore stereotyping a wealth of learned and trusted keepers and undermining their knowledge and care, grinds me somewhat more!
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby El Lobo » Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:54 pm

xxmonitorlizardxx wrote:*Looks for Blue Tongue Skink eating dog food in the wild* :hmm:

While I don't advocate feeding dog/cat food, it really grinds my gears when I see people who say that they feed solely dog/cat food. :nono:

I do like how Hurricanejen feeds her skinks though!


I'm looking forward to the expansion of the above where there is some detail to support the non-advocacy, rather than just a pronouncement from on high.
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby Dakota » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:07 pm

DrakeLineous12 wrote:Going back to beardies, since their diets are so similar I use several bearded dragon foods as a staple. The contents of which generally sticks with the 40/50/10 rule.

I feed Bearded Dragons pellets (soaked in water.) mixed with wet cat-food, switching to wet dog-food, soon, since Katrina didn't like the idea. My skinks both love it, getting a really nice size, and no signs of MBD.
I use only Adult Beardie food, though, since it is said they are more vegetarian than babies.
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby Katrina » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:25 pm

Dakota - look at that last thread I linked in my previous post. Brad (Reptile King) has a post showing the ingredients of the beardie pellets. They are basically overpriced crap - the first ingredients are all cheap fillers, they use vegetable protein and almost zero meat, tons of grains and crap and all sorts of chemicals including the pretty food colors. :? The cheap, Pedigree dog food is a MUCH healthier food for blueys, those beardie pellets are just awful. I also recommended cutting those out, cat food would be better to feed than those. Those are basically the McNugget version of reptile food - you might think it's chicken, but it is all corn and other fillers!

I think DrakeLineous12 was talking about using healthy beardie diets consisting of whole foods as a staple - NOT the pellets. :)
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby Dakota » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:54 pm

Katrina wrote:Dakota - look at that last thread I linked in my previous post. Brad (Reptile King) has a post showing the ingredients of the beardie pellets. They are basically overpriced crap - the first ingredients are all cheap fillers, they use vegetable protein and almost zero meat, tons of grains and crap and all sorts of chemicals including the pretty food colors. :? The cheap, Pedigree dog food is a MUCH healthier food for blueys, those beardie pellets are just awful. I also recommended cutting those out, cat food would be better to feed than those. Those are basically the McNugget version of reptile food - you might think it's chicken, but it is all corn and other fillers!

I think DrakeLineous12 was talking about using healthy beardie diets consisting of whole foods as a staple - NOT the pellets. :)

Thanks! :thumbs: I fed as the vegetable part of the diet, but definitely rethinking it.
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Re: Food Discussion

Postby DrakeLineous12 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:37 pm

Dakota Nivens wrote:
DrakeLineous12 wrote:Going back to beardies, since their diets are so similar I use several bearded dragon foods as a staple. The contents of which generally sticks with the 40/50/10 rule.

I feed Bearded Dragons pellets (soaked in water.) mixed with wet cat-food, switching to wet dog-food, soon, since Katrina didn't like the idea. My skinks both love it, getting a really nice size, and no signs of MBD.
I use only Adult Beardie food, though, since it is said they are more vegetarian than babies.


I suppose if one must use mammalian food, dog is better than cat, for a lot of reasons. I do use adult beardie food soaked in water as well but I might actually switch to box turtle food though since the formulation and specifications are nearly identical except that the BT food has fruit in it, just the right amount too. What brand do you use?

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