my BTS

[El Lobo]

It would be so much easier if the rest of the world could just switch over to English!

It would be even easier if those who have switched over to English knew how to spell the language properly.

[Jeff]

Shut up Norm! It's usually spelled, Ingle's here anyway.

[kenn]

Ok. Thanks, Jeff and Richard.
So the official taxonomy is Tiliqua ssp. Irian Jaya

I'm here to learning more, so it's good that you guys give advice!

Thanks all and happy new year!

[Richard.C]

No probs ken,happy new year to u as well

[xxmonitorlizardxx]

I wouldn't call it an Irian Jaya. I see were your going. but I see too many Merauke as well. My original guess was newer form merauke. But now I think it's just an inbetweener.

[Bird_Brain]

I wouldn't call it an Irian Jaya. I see were your going. but I see too many Merauke as well. My original guess was newer form merauke. But now I think it's just an inbetweener.

Disagree, looks pretty much spot on to be an IJ. But of course there are still some highly respectable bts experts who think IJ are meraukes. IMO, this is an IJ.

[Fatal_S]

I agree, very IJ. Cute skink

[kenn]

I see I have a lot to learn about locations.. but anyway: frosti ain't going away!

[xxmonitorlizardxx]

Could you take picture of its neck head area? This looks more Newer Form Merauke still...

I'm surprised you guys think this is an IJ! Especially Fatal because your description of an IJ doesn't fit this:
I'm writing in red
"A classic IJ should have:
- Clear or speckled front legs" IJ's don't have speckled legs but faded, clear, or have white lines on them
"- Little-to-no outlining on the top of the head" This skink has tons of outlining
"- Three stripes/trident down back of neck" Doesn't have that
"- The bands should be thick and defined and two colors" Newer Form Meraukes have that as well
"- The body should be shorter and fatter" It's not really short
"- The back and tail should be clear between bands" Definitely isn't clear
"- Colors of all kinds of yellows/browns/reds" Newer Form Meraukes have that as well

Reasons why this isn't an IJ.
-The bands are more colorful and the bands are thicker than on a the regular Meraukes but they're not thick enough to be of an IJ.
-On its neck there is one long full stripe and two very much smaller stripes on each side of the middle stripe (a trait of newer form Meraukes while IJ's tend to have three complete stripes all of about the same length.)
-Also IJ's normally don't have white speckles on their front legs rather the color fades on one side of the leg or their are white faded stripes. Newer form Meraukes have speckles and this one has speckles.
-IJ's don't have many black speckles in-between their bands on their back while Newer Form Meraukes do this one has many speckles.
-The tail, while short, looks to make up about 45% of it's body length the same as Blueberry.


Comparative pictures can be found here:
IJs - http://www.bluetongueskinks.net/irian.htm
Both Newer Form Meraukes and IJs - viewtopic.php?f=24&t=20330

[kenn]

I'll shoot some new ones tomorrow, thanks for the help.

Is there a genetic test?
I know for Testudo sp. that there are specific markers for DNA sequencing...but does it exist for skinks?

[Fatal_S]

ML, you are right that this does not fit my classic-IJ description, but it's still more IJ than Merauke. It's a short, stocky BTS. Thick, colourful bands. Trident on neck is broken up, but so is the rest of the pattern on this one. I can see your reasoning for calling it new-form Merauke, but I disagree. I consider it completely an IJ, and would breed it with another similar IJ. Maybe not with one of Zach's type, but there are many other IJs out there who look just like this.

Remember, there is no cut-and-dry, this-is-it, look. Every species/locality has normal variations. This one just seems to fall slightly outside the classic look, but still IJ IMO.

Again, all IMO. No one here has any real proof, just our opinion based on current knowledge of the species. There is sadly very little information regarding IJs and Meraukes, and no DNA sequencing or such. We simply rely on the opinions and instruction of more experienced BTS-people. So if someone else comes and has a different opinion, especially if it's someone who I consider an expert, I would of course give their opinion far more weight than my own.

[xxmonitorlizardxx]

Could I see a picture of a similar looking IJ. Because I'm having an extremely hard time finding one, especially an IJ with all of those speckles in-between the bands...


Edit: Ok so I found like 3 others with the speckles but they look nothing like it...

[Fatal_S]

Was going to say I know one guy who keeps photos of random skinks he sees, and apparently he doesn't keep photos of IJs, just Meraukes and morph-skinks

[xxmonitorlizardxx]

Was going to say I know one guy who keeps photos of random skinks he sees, and apparently he doesn't keep photos of IJs, just Meraukes and morph-skinks

I know right!!!
I had to delete all of the data on my computer. Luckily I saved all of my pictures on a usb... I don't know where it is though, well I think I do but I'm too lazy to look for it.
And like you said, I only keep pictures of Gigas(not just Meraukes) and morphs/unique animals. I have probably 6 pictures of IJ's out of the about... 800 pictures

[Bluish]

I.J. ish. Definitely not Merauke.

[xxmonitorlizardxx]

I.J. ish. Definitely not Merauke.

What makes you say definitely?

And fatal if you took my avatar of blueberry's pattern and made the bands wider but broken up and incomplete it would look like this skink.

[xxmonitorlizardxx]

Fatal the last time we debated over a gigas I was right once again I'll find a way to convince you

[Fatal_S]

And if I took a Western and shopped it I could make it look like a shingleback. Doesn't make it one. Point is looking at what is already there. The bands are very thick and colourful. Even "new"-meraukes tend to have bands only a few scales wide at most. I see 3-5 scales of banding on this one.

Bberry is not the best example of a new-merauke. He's basically just a speckly classic IMO. We just tend to throw anything that isn't classic into the "new" category. Bberry is a long, skinny skink. Pale colour, thin bands. The speckles are the only non-classic thing that I can recall.

To make Bberry look like this we would have to thicken the bands, add lots of colour, bulk up the skink, shorten the tail, and mess with the neck and foreleg pattern. Basically an overhaul.

You see Merauke, I see IJ. I make no promises that I'm right. I just see it as being a fairly normal IJ. I would even consider it normal enough to be willing to breed it to a similar skink. It's IJ enough that I wouldn't be worried about cross-breeding. That said, the photos aren't great - better photos could reveal something different. And again, this is all just MO, I'm no expert.

Fatal the last time we debated over a gigas I was right once again I'll find a way to convince you

Better photos, expert testimony, compelling reasons. Those might cause me to reconsider my definition of IJ. And I am always willing to reconsider - I'm no expert. But neither are you.

[xxmonitorlizardxx]

Well apparently I think everything is a Merauke so surrender here...
I still think it's Merauke, the weirdest one I've ever seen but still a Merauke.
I only hope that if you breed it, that you find a similar looking animal

[Bluish]

I.J. ish. Definitely not Merauke.

What makes you say definitely?.

Everything about it looks I.J. to me.
I've got 5 Meraukes and that one doesn't look close to anything I've got.
It does however look like just about every I.J. I've seen for sale though.