What in the world just came out of my skink?!

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Buddy
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Re: What in the world just came out of my skink?!

Postby Buddy » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:31 am

El Lobo wrote:There is nothing that stands out in the diet which shows immediate cause for alarm, but could you be more specific with the salad items. Greens are the main source of oxalic acid with some much higher than others e.g. spinach, parsley, beet leaves and even collards are high in oxalic acid. This is of course presuming the crystals were actually calcium oxalate.

LeaBilby has already touched on the possibility of uric acid producing the observed crystals. Uric acid is carried around to the organs in the bloodstream. If there is an excess it will tend to congregate in the synovial fluid of joints producing the very painful condition of gout. A skink with gout will restrict its movements because of the pain, presenting as inactive. Excessive uric acid will be found in quite a few foods and elimination of these food may be necessary to avoid prolonged issues. Purine is one food substance that will contribute; it is found in cat food as an additive because cats cannot synthesise this amino acid necessary for digestion. All meats have purine but some such as offal have more. Seafood such as herrings, mackerel, sardines and anchovies are best avoided all together with some others like meat gravies, lentils, spinach and high fat dairy. If it was my skink I would eliminate the chicken hearts. Read the label of the dog food currently used to see if it contains much offal.

If another mass is passed it could be well worthwhile having it analysed to determine exactly what the crystals are.

The supplement linked seems OK but I would opt for a calcium supplement derived from pure oyster shell containing no phosphorous; this one has 3% phosphorous.


Have you guys read the detailed food chart in the care sheet? Every time I want to try something new, I turn tho this. It's really helpful, it specifies what you can feed frequently, in moderate, occasionally and what not to feed at all (and what's toxic). It also mentions oxalates. I'll cut out the mango (only used it twice a while back).

Could someone help me analyse this then, it's the nutrition info of the dog food I'm using:

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein, Min 8%
Crude Fat, Min 3.5%
Crude Fiber, Max 1%
Moisture, Max 82%

And the ingredients:
Ingredients: sufficient water for processing, beef by-products, liver, meat by-products, poultry by-products, chicken, beef, calcium carbonate, sodium tripolyphosphate, carrageenan, dried yam, caramel coloring, xanthan gum, natural flavors, potassium chloride, salt, erythorbic acid, guar gum, zinc sulfate, yellow #5 and #6, sodium nitrite (for color retention), vitamin A, D3 and E supplements, d-calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1)

If this is not a good meat source for him, I'll change it as from today.
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Re: What in the world just came out of my skink?!

Postby El Lobo » Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:10 am

Buddy wrote:Have you guys read the detailed food chart in the care sheet? Every time I want to try something new, I turn tho this. It's really helpful, it specifies what you can feed frequently, in moderate, occasionally and what not to feed at all (and what's toxic). It also mentions oxalates. I'll cut out the mango (only used it twice a while back).


Did you look at how long posters who have been trying to help with the question you posed have been members and if they are active members before you wrote this patronising reply?

My regret is wasting my time trying to be of help. I took time out from writing a paper in conjunction with a vet to rectify the husbandry practices of a rabbit breeder experiencing a high mortality rate amongst young kits. Perhaps I shouldn't bother with skink issues any further but remain concentrated solely on rabbits where even a vet is willing to listen to me on matters of diet. Before you ask; I did not develop my rabbit diets from Bugs Bunny cartoons.



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Re: What in the world just came out of my skink?!

Postby Buddy » Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:41 am

Patronising reply?? My reply was in NO WAY meant to be patronising. I'm sorry if that's the way you took it.

What I wanted to get through was, you wrote; "Greens are the main source of oxalic acid with some much higher than others e.g. spinach, parsley, beet leaves and even collards are high in oxalic acid. This is of course presuming the crystals were actually calcium oxalate." And my answer was supposed to let you know that I only use the greens/veggies/fruits in the food chart that is supposed to be fed frequently to skinks. And I was trying to get through that I'm not using any foods with notes on it to have high oxalates, that's why I mentioned the mango.
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Re: What in the world just came out of my skink?!

Postby Buddy » Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:47 am

I've re-read my reply a few times and I'm sorry, I don't see where I'm being patronising towards you or anyone else.
I'm trying to get some help, advice and inputs from you guys, that's all..
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Re: What in the world just came out of my skink?!

Postby Buddy » Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:51 am

Another thing I though of, as some of you know, when he lived at the pet store he was fed bird granular soaked in water.

It's been 8 months now since I bought him and changed his diet, could this still have affected him? Or is it something more recently in his diet that caused this?
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Re: What in the world just came out of my skink?!

Postby PlinkoPachinko » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:38 am

El Lobo wrote:It hasn't been ascertained what the crystals are the OP detected in the mass his skink passed. We're only covering bases as to the more likely crystals and how they can occur.

PlinkoPachinko wrote:So what exactly is being said here? That too many greens can cause gout? What would a BAD diet look like, if it were causing these problems (because obviously the OP has a pretty good diet)? Lately I've been using those freezedried veggies/greens and dogfood, but if I'm seriously risking Plinko's health by not buying fresh veggies and greens, then I'll change. It's just a pain because I only have one skink and the food always goes bad :(


Plinko, I think you need to read into the responses a little more because there is no suggestion too many greens cause gout. Spinach was the only green mentioned to avoid due to higher levels of purine. I don't have personal experience of the freezedried veggies and greens you mention so I don't know any relative advantage/disadvantage. My own preference is to feed fresh wherever possible and never to freeze leafy greens as I believe they are unpalatable when thawed. I also feed across three vastly different species, so with a little planning there is not too much wastage.

Toxique wrote:With the foods and the mention of catfood, would it be possible to aid the situation by switching from catfood (which i give to mine) to dog food?

Also, sorry to bombard this thread with my own questions, not my intent! I've just seen morti plunk these out too.


It's only a personal view on catfood but I have not seen anything to suggest the added purine has any benefit to a BTS, rather it MAY potentially contribute to gout.


"Greens are the main source of oxalic acid with some much higher than others e.g. spinach, parsley, beet leaves and even collards are high in oxalic acid."

That lead me to believe that feeding those greens in large amounts would = the crystals. You'd have to explain it in more layman's terms, which is what I was actually asking, so please don't mock my reading comprehension. I simply asked a question...Which you actually didn't answer. I asked if she were feeding the WRONG foods, what would they be, since you asked what her diet was.
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Re: What in the world just came out of my skink?!

Postby Spindown » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:13 pm

There is some great information in this thread. OP, there are tons of foods IN the food chart that ARE full of oxalates, and are specifically labeled. They ARE in there though, so saying that you only feed food from the chart by no means indicates that you arent using greens with high oxalates. I made a mistake early on by reading that collard greens were great (which they are pretty awesome), and fed them as the main green, at every meal. Then I noticed that in the updated chart (and probably in the old chart, and I just missed it), that they are high in oxalates. I immediately switched to Mustard greens as my main green with every meal.

PlinkoPachinko: I think that what is being said is that food containing high levels of oxalates are a danger if fed too often. "Greens" were targeted because there are a lot of different greens that are full of oxalates vs other random categories of food. Green leafy food, in and of itself, is NOT a bad category to feed from, only "greens" with high oxalate content. I have a fresh skink meal every 4-5 feedings, because it gets blended in the food processor and then frozen. One batch of food that I make lasts 4-5 meals for 4 skinks! I have had no issues what-so-ever from feeding my skinks frozen with some fresh. The worry that many people have is that frozen food loses specific types of nutrients. However, I personally dont think based off what I have read that using frozen/thawed meals presents a danger, as long as there are occasional fresh food items being fed. You might not even need that, but I do it just to be safe. However, my snakes ONLY get frozen/thawed food, and they are doing fantastically :)

All that being said, I have NEVER seen something like that passed by any of my skinks. Green runny poo when my new (at the time) acquisition was full of parasites, and horrible stinky poo when I fed eggs (NEVER again!), but never anything that looked like it had crystals in it. I'm glad to know what some of the possible causes (and fixes) are if I DO see something like this though!
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Re: What in the world just came out of my skink?!

Postby Buddy » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:01 pm

SapphireTigress wrote:There is some great information in this thread. OP, there are tons of foods IN the food chart that ARE full of oxalates, and are specifically labeled. They ARE in there though, so saying that you only feed food from the chart by no means indicates that you arent using greens with high oxalates. I made a mistake early on by reading that collard greens were great (which they are pretty awesome), and fed them as the main green, at every meal. Then I noticed that in the updated chart (and probably in the old chart, and I just missed it), that they are high in oxalates. I immediately switched to Mustard greens as my main green with every meal.


Ugh.. I'm really having trouble getting through today, sry.. =) When I wrote "And my answer was supposed to let you know that I only use the greens/veggies/fruits in the food chart that is supposed to be fed frequently to skinks. And I was trying to get through that I'm not using any foods with notes on it to have high oxalates, that's why I mentioned the mango." I meant that I only feed him what the food chart says should be fed frequently, and not the ones who says that has any notes about oxalates. :)
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Re: What in the world just came out of my skink?!

Postby Jeff » Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:10 pm

Don't worry Buddy, I understand what you were saying. :)
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Re: What in the world just came out of my skink?!

Postby Spindown » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:46 pm

I have been known to have obtuse moments ;)
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Re: What in the world just came out of my skink?!

Postby Buddy » Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:50 am

Jeff wrote:Don't worry Buddy, I understand what you were saying. :)


Oh, yay! :mrgreen: Haha, seems everybody gets me wrong, getting worried here!
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Re: What in the world just came out of my skink?!

Postby Buddy » Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:55 am

(And no, I didn't mean that in a patronising way towards anyone else but myself, English isn't my language, I'm from Sweden.)
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Re: What in the world just came out of my skink?!

Postby Lea » Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:59 am

Buddy wrote: ... I'm from Sweden.)



Ooohhhhh! That explains everything! :lol: :wink:
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Re: What in the world just came out of my skink?!

Postby Buddy » Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:30 am

LeaBilby wrote:
Buddy wrote: ... I'm from Sweden.)



Ooohhhhh! That explains everything! :lol: :wink:


Okay, now that's just plain mean!! :wink: :mrgreen:
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Re: What in the world just came out of my skink?!

Postby Lea » Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:45 am

Oh, don't worry, I can be the butt of all English jokes, it's all fair in the end! :wink:
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