T. gigas minimum nighttime / brumation temperatures

[Katrina]

I'm pulling out all of the off topic posts from the "What kind of skinks are these?" thread and putting them up here - please continue the discussion in this thread and leave the other thread for any future questions the original poster may have.

Hope this makes sense reading - I can't move individual posts over to a new thread, so this is the best way I can think of to separate the threads without losing any of the already posted content. I think this is an interesting / worthwhile discussion.

63 will be fine for the northern, a little cool for the indo but it should also be fine so long as it does not drop much lower then that.

I disagree. I have not had much luck when temps got below 70 with my indos and keis. It has resulted in death. Keep them 70F and above!

Yes, this is going to be individual animal dependent, it seems...

I have kept 2 T.G.Gigas at temperatures below 60F for nearly 3 months before...no ill effects that I have noticed...but, I have also heard of others like Reptileking that I have lost animals when the temperatures get much below 65-70F.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about a minimum temperature of 63F, but that may simply be because I have been "lucky" with my last two experiences with the asian species...it is better to be safe then sorry!

Northerns should be fine down to 55F or so as long as there is a "warming" period to about 65F during the day...again, I have had 3 northerns cooled down to 50-55F with no ill effects...that is all winter (2.5-3 months).

I provide night time winter heat to both my Indo and my Tanny. They seem to be much happier that way. I think a minimum of 70 at night is the right number to shoot for. Of course as usual though ... to each his own.

wrote:
I disagree. I have not had much luck when temps got below 70 with my indos and keis. It has resulted in death. Keep them 70F and above!

I completely agree, Brad. Emphatically. From personal experience, I'd say 75 at the lowest, honestly.

I've kept my Indos at 55-60 with no problems. Heh, obviously however, if someone has a death and thinks it's because of temperature, they will be against it. Those who have done it with no problems will tell you it's ok. So...it comes down to personal opinion after reading many reviews, and this is the place to do it! With the Indos however, I would agree with the others that they should be kept a bit warmer if possible.

Personally, I dont think it is necessarily a personal issue. I really do feel that below 70F is risking it. However, I do feel that healthier adults are more likely to survive these colder temps. The babies and the weaker adults really couldnt handle the colder temps.

My guys drop to about 65-69 F at night and have for over a year now, with no ill effects. They are all gigas species. I would say that if it is of no trouble, try to keep them above 70 F but I would not really worry if it were to fall a little below that.

My guys drop to about 65-69 F at night and have for over a year now, with no ill effects. They are all gigas species. I would say that if it is of no trouble, try to keep them above 70 F but I would not really worry if it were to fall a little below that.

You have only had your first bluey for less than 9 months.

My guys drop to about 65-69 F at night and have for over a year now, with no ill effects. They are all gigas species. I would say that if it is of no trouble, try to keep them above 70 F but I would not really worry if it were to fall a little below that.

Off topic, please start a new thread for that discussion.

And yes, Pesky and Ashley have both had skinks for under a year so I'm curious how Ashley adamantly would NEVER go below 75 for gigas and Pesky knows that is it fine to go to 65. Perhaps this is a discussion for those with a few more years experience??

And yes, Pesky and Ashley have both had skinks for under a year so I'm curious how Ashley adamantly would NEVER go below 75 for gigas and Pesky knows that is it fine to go to 65. Perhaps this is a discussion for those with a few more years experience??

I say this because you know there was a bit of a debate on the site over the passing of my merauke, Luna, a few months back. (I believe I PM'ed you over the issue.) I talked to Ray about this, and he seemed to feel that the temperatures contributed to, if not caused the skink's death, and it never dropped below 70 at night. Ray advised not letting the temperatures get below the mid to upper 70's at night. I've done this with both of my current skinks and they are perfect. It could be coincidence, but it's worked so far! Also, I say 65 is too low because I've looked at native temps in Indonesia and it does not reach these low temps.

Don't want to keep this tread off topic but I would suggest that if interpreting weather data a cursory glance is insufficient.

The commonly referred data for Merauke is sampled at 3 meters above sea level. This would be significantly different higher in the mountains and the exact location of WC Meraukes would be impossible to know. Interestingly, last year in August and September the lowest temperature in Merauke was 58°F at sea level.

Keep in mind that Indonesia does not have 4 seasons as we know them. There are 2 distinct seasons viz. rainy season and hot season.

[Katrina]

And yes, Pesky and Ashley have both had skinks for under a year so I'm curious how Ashley adamantly would NEVER go below 75 for gigas and Pesky knows that is it fine to go to 65. Perhaps this is a discussion for those with a few more years experience??

I say this because you know there was a bit of a debate on the site over the passing of my merauke, Luna, a few months back. (I believe I PM'ed you over the issue.) I talked to Ray about this, and he seemed to feel that the temperatures contributed to, if not caused the skink's death, and it never dropped below 70 at night. Ray advised not letting the temperatures get below the mid to upper 70's at night. I've done this with both of my current skinks and they are perfect. It could be coincidence, but it's worked so far! Also, I say 65 is too low because I've looked at native temps in Indonesia and it does not reach these low temps.

Ashley - I'm not trying to start an argument or pick fights, please don't think I'm trying to be mean. I apologize for singling you out, I just thought it was odd that you both have such strong views. I actually had forgotten about the air conditioning being on in the room for the third skinks death so I wasn't sure where your earlier post claiming personal experience in nothing lower than 75 degrees came from, seeing as you haven't been through brumation or winter with a skink yet.

Did you ever get the necropsy done to determine cause of death for that skink? I didn't think that the air conditioning was pointed anywhere near the skink, as I recall you told me that it probably couldn't have contributed to the cause of death because it wasn't directly cooling the enclosure. Forgive me if I'm wrong, I do remember discussing it with you over PM but I don't still have the original PM - the inbox fills up too fast.

I have personally heard both views on this subject - from those who are convinced that T. gigas skinks have died due to temperatures dropping below a certain point and those who have kept T. gigas for YEARS without any issues and temperature constantly going below 70 degrees. I remember speaking to one person who kept them at the same temps as his Northerns during brumation - he claimed it regularly got to 55ish degrees with no ill effects.

This is an interesting discussion - I'm still on the fence. I think they should have higher temperatures and I know what works for me and my skinks (so far) but I don't have strong enough feeling to state a temperature that one shouldn't go below. There is too much evidence for both sides, so until something more scientific comes along I will stick with what works for me (and is on the safe side), but I won't argue my opinions without better scientific proof. At this time it seems all we have are those who have learned by trial and error over many years and these type of discussions to learn from. So please continue - we can all learn!!

[Pesky Fly]

My Merauke pair is just now comming out of brum (They went in for sure about 3 weeks ago, most likely a little farther back.) for the last 2 moths or so they were not intrested in eating, and now are back to being my little eating machines. They went down to 65-68 F for about 2/3 of the day, with a high of 100 F for about an hour a day. Now I am misting like crazy, informing them its time to wake up. I am not sure if I will try for a breeding this year or not, I am still insecure with placing them together as I dont want anything to happen to either of them. Back to the main subject;

As none of my guys are dead or harmed in anyway and are all gigas or some sort, I believe it is safe to say that 65 F at night is not going to kill them. It’s obviously not the optimum, but alone it is not going to cause death of a healthy animal. Brad mentioned his Kei dying: he has over 20 of the Kie’s alone, if one of his animals is acting off is he really going to notice right away (I am not trying to attack him in anyway, when you have that many of any type of animal it is hard to notice when one is not acting right. I an not throwing blame, just using an example.) ? Also for a while there it seemed like he was getting tons of animals at the same time, some of which were recent WC’s. Contamination, infestation, medication, stress, temps, disease, injury, sickness in any combination could have been responsible. If your animal is sickly, injured, young, or recently WC I would keep the temps up a bit otherwise I don’t believe that a 5 degrees difference is going to throw the balance that is essential for them to thrive.

[Bird_Brain]

Actually Pesky, it was more than 1 Kei. I had a total of 6 of my blue tongues die this year in the basement. I am giving them all the same care as I have for the last 2-3 years with the only exception of temps dropping between 60-65F at night. In my reptile room, I have Northerns, Indos, Keis, and Tannies. Out of all these, I had 3 kei islands die and 3 indos die. 2 of the Keis were the CBB babies that I purchased this year (I about cried when I found them dead) and the Indos were the ones I got to breed last year and their baby. The northerns didnt seem to be affected at all and were just as lively when I dug them up to check on. Same with the Tannies. The other Keis (3) and the last Indo were all very very sluggish and "limp" (cant think of a better word to describe them). I seriously thought that Cooper (my first Kei) was dead by the way he was acting (or lack of). It took quite a bit before he would move for me.

The rest of my keis, which are the ones I got in a relatively short period of time are still upstairs in the quarantine room. As I have mentioned previously, I recommend and practice quarantining on all my new animals. Heck, 4 of those keis came from Andrew, but I still quarantined them because I do not want to risk loosing my whole collection. I use rubber gloves when I do anything in that room and I scrub up afterwards with bleach solution. Is it possible? Absolutely! Is it likely? I honestly dont think so.

So, with temps being the only variable that has changed, I have no other reason to believe it was anything else that killed them.

[jasjmm27]

Well, Brad's losses alone would be enough to influence me (and already has) to keep my Gigas at higher temperatures...yes, I have "been lucky", but won't rely on that anymore...

I have also checked the low temperatures of the various regions that T.Gigas live in and it never really drops below 70F (20C), average temperatures, there even at the coldest time...

The only exception might be if there is some "Alpine IJ" that I don't know about?

[Katrina]

Brad, I'm so sorry to hear about all your losses. I didn't realize the extent of them.

Pesky - while your experiences are very relevant to this discussion it is not enough to determine that temperatures of 65 or less overnight is safe for gigas species, just because your 3-4 (I'm not sure if you brumated all of them) survived 3-8 weeks of brumation.

I would agree that an otherwise healthy Indonesian type of BTS should be able to survive those temperatures, but there is definitely evidence suggesting otherwise (I've heard the same from Andrew Seike as well). We definitely still have more to learn.

[asshhleeyyy]

So, with temps being the only variable that has changed, I have no other reason to believe it was anything else that killed them.

Brad, I think you've given an excellent example. I obviously have far fewer animals than you, but I've heard experts who were quite adament about the temps not dropping that low for gigas species. I am sure that the gigas I bought that died this past summer died of a RI (necropsy). However, I do not know if this originated in my care (she died a week or so after coming to me) or if it got worse when she got here. However, I know that while my temps NEVER dropped below, say, 70 at night without lights, I've kept two 150 watt heat lamps on my current merauke, and 2 100 watt lamps on my Northern. I've had no repeat problems. It could be a coincidence, I suppose, but since both skinks came from the same location...well..who knows.

[Bird_Brain]

I also want to make it clear that I had no intention of the babies cages getting to brumating temps to begin with. I have the faulty power strip to thank for that.

But I now have a heater in that room which keeps it above 70F. I also invested in a digital thermometer that has a remote sensor to measure outside temps. So I have the main unit that displays the temps upstairs in my living room and the remote sensor in the reptile room. So every minute I get an updated reading of the rooms temp.

I was actually out of town for work when all this happened. It was hard coming home knowing that the one baby indo died but even more of a shock to find 5 others dead once I got home.

[asshhleeyyy]

Brad,I am sorry about your losses. That is awful. I can't imagine how lousy that must have been to come home to.

Pesky, I also wanted to add something to you: I don't mean to sound preachy AT ALL, I am just passing on what I've learned and what others have told me-you've mentioned that you're misting to wake your skinks from brumation, or you're about to (I forgot! Sorry!). I feel it's important to ensure that everything is dry in the cage when your lights go out, as if there is ANY residual moisture with your low temps at night, it could prove quite dangerous for your animals.

[El Lobo]

Well, Brad's losses alone would be enough to influence me (and already has) to keep my Gigas at higher temperatures...yes, I have "been lucky", but won't rely on that anymore...

I have also checked the low temperatures of the various regions that T.Gigas live in and it never really drops below 70F (20C), average temperatures, there even at the coldest time...

The only exception might be if there is some "Alpine IJ" that I don't know about?

The highest point in Irian Jaya is Puncak Jaya, at 4,884 meters or 16,024 feet.

[Katrina]

Has anyone heard of IJs dying for no apparent reason other than cold?

I am thinking that since they are likely hybrids the T. scincoides influence would give them an advantage in the cold weather that equatorial T. gigas may not have - which is why we only hear of Indo, Meraukes and Keis dying when temps get too low (obviously I'm talking of the 60-65F range and not the 50ish or lower range that we heard about killing Northerns on the other site).

It just seems like another small piece of evidence that supports the hybrid theory... but I'd love to hear others thoughts on it.

[Tattoo]

OMG Brad I just saw this. So sorry to hear of your losses. I was floored when I read how many you lost.

[Bird_Brain]

Has anyone heard of IJs dying for no apparent reason other than cold?

I am thinking that since they are likely hybrids the T. scincoides influence would give them an advantage in the cold weather that equatorial T. gigas may not have - which is why we only hear of Indo, Meraukes and Keis dying when temps get too low (obviously I'm talking of the 60-65F range and not the 50ish or lower range that we heard about killing Northerns on the other site).

It just seems like another small piece of evidence that supports the hybrid theory... but I'd love to hear others thoughts on it.

I have been thinking the same thing. Same wiht the Tanimbars (but they are atleast labeled as scincoides), they seem to be able to handle colder temps like the IJ.

[cguarino30]

I know I'm resurrecting an old thread, but I have been doing some research in the forum (I hope to soon have a breeding program of Meraukes, with any luck, and I came across this successful breeding statistic from Iceman that I thought was relevant.

Although I did it this season, I would not recommend keeping blue-tongues of most species together. I kept both skinks In a vision 332 with a few hides and fake plants. They would generally avoid each other, but at feeding time they would feed from one bowl (although I soon switched to two bowls to more easily monitor food intake). I will probably keep them separate next season. When I brumate the Meraukes I simply put them in a 28qt box filled with aspen in the garage and try to keep the temps between 48 and 54 by use of heat pads and a helix thermostat. I have tried moving entire cages down to the garage for the brumation period, but I found that the skinks stayed active and lost weight with a basking spot, even if it was on for fewer than 3 hours per day. I do not leave water in the cage but offer it every 10 -12 days in a small dish. The skinks usually do not drink. This is just my experience, and although I know my methods are a bit odd, they seem to be paying off so far.

[Jeff]

I am going to lock this because it is WAY too old to revive. This particular thread will cause even more confusion than most old threads because of how it was split when it was new.

Please just start a new thread if you want to discuss old topics.