hyper eastern

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Lisa
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Postby Lisa » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:51 pm

Like Peter says, these have not been bred this way, they were found in the wild like that, and now people are able to breed from them. I'm not a fan of the albinos, but I love the black ones.

Peter, do you have this month's Reptiles Australia yet? There's a large article in it on albino reps and the bluetongues feature in there. SnakeRanch is Weigal's project, isn't it? He's doing Rough Scale Pythons as well I think.
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Postby bluetonguemad » Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:49 pm

im not truly sure what my stance on this kind of breeding is, but i think if theyre not interbred and they occured in the wild then try to keep a few of them in captivity for interest reasons
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Postby mouseinamilkbottle » Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:57 pm

A lot of albino animals don't survive in the wild because of lack of camouflage from predators and attacks from their own species. I think in the caresheet it mentions a member who had an albino baby born to one of their BTS, and the mother immediately turned around and killed it before the owner could prevent it.

Albinos (and hypermelanistic creatures) are an aberration in nature, and nature tends to act accordingly, unfortunately.
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Tye - 173 grams
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Postby Zbiz » Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:35 pm

Hm... well being a leopard gecko breeder myself. I think the difference between a morph and just a random unique animal is that the morph is either selectively breed to get more intense pattern or color, such as carrot tails or have genetic root, such as albinos. The thing is these animals are not produced by cross breeding subspecies but by selectively breeding through years of hard work by breeders. Kudos to leopard gecko breeders before me for all their hard work.

My feelings on blueys is as long as the breeding stays within the boundries of subspecies... go at it, if you can produce an all orange bts consistantly with out cross breeding thats awesome. If not id say at least make sure people know the animal you are selling is a hybrid.

On a side note. I wonder how albino blue tongues do in captivity. I know albino beardies usually die quickly do to little protection against UVB waves that they need. Thats why many albino reptiles that are common in the pet industry are nocturnal, such as pythons, geckos ect.
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Postby Lisa » Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:09 pm

According to the article in this edition of Reptiles Australia Magazine (the actual article covers mainly BTS, pythons and colourbrids) they all seem to be doing well in captivity. In regard to their sensitivities, they appear fine under 'full spectrum florescent lights' but tend to hide their heads outside on a sunny day.
1 Eastern, JUBBY, born January 2004

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Postby Johan » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:53 am

That's my pic with the 2 albino BTS :ohyes:
Same pic as in the Australian reptiles magazine.

John Weigel asked me to sex the black BTS and HET albinos last time I was overthere. Not easy.
So I got to play with them for a few hours. Cool looking lizards.

Johan.
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Postby KyleWeiss » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:54 am

Again, my only problem is, humans have a habit of "tinkering" with genetics, breeding certain traits back to the mother or the father, thus getting color "morphs," which albinism is nature's version of a "morph." People will take these oddities and try so hard to isolate a specific trait.

It can lead to weaknesses in the animals, look at the problems a lot of purebred dogs, simply "morphs" of wolves, have nowadays.

The talk of staying within the bounds of "subspecies" is really difficult with blue tongues, because there's really no subspecies to speak of. There's recognized differences in the T. gigas (Meraukes and Indonesians) the T. Nigrolutea with "Alpines" and "Lowland" blotched skinks which are still debated whether or not they are separate, and the most agreed subspecies going to the shinglebacks, which I'm not going to try and remember the four different "subspecies." Cross-breeding is almost inevitable amongst people who don't care or don't know, especially in Australia.

I like morphs, but there's something wonderful about the real thing, which as I was mentioning with leopard geckoes, the hard work the breeders have done have made a fad out of these lizards and have almost forgotten it's natural roots. I hope the blueys never have this problem.

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Postby mouseinamilkbottle » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:42 am

KyleWeiss wrote:Again, my only problem is, humans have a habit of "tinkering" with genetics, breeding certain traits back to the mother or the father, thus getting color "morphs," which albinism is nature's version of a "morph." People will take these oddities and try so hard to isolate a specific trait.


It's a faddist, "designer" thing, which I don't particularly approve of if it's being done on a commercial scale without considering the animals. If your gene pool's big enough, and you're keeping an eye out for other less desirable traits, rather than just colour, fair enough. It's when it's too small and there are other problems that crop up without control that it gets ugly.

KyleWeiss wrote:It can lead to weaknesses in the animals, look at the problems a lot of purebred dogs, simply "morphs" of wolves, have nowadays.


I could go on about this angle for pages. I couldn't agree more. I mean, look at the British Bulldog, for heaven's sake. That's what happens when a creature is so inbred for hundreds of years to get specific traits.

I've seen problems in pure bred dogs over the years, where the breeders are just after the colour, not the health of the dog.

I saw a chocolate Labrador once on the dog beach in Newcastle. I thought initially it must have been a crossbreed - it just didn't look right. Its head was about half again too big, for a Labrador, so it had this strange, out of proportion look. It was a result of too much inbreeding for the colour, according to its owner. It was purebred, and the oversized head wasn't its only health problem.

Another chocolate coloured dog - a Standard Poodle this time. This beautiful dog, Alice, was full grown, and only the size of a Miniature Poodle. To give you an idea how stunted that is, Standards are about the size of Miniatures when they're about two to three months of age. Alice was on a very low allergen diet when I met her, had had thousands of dollars worth of medical bills, and only ended up living around two years before she had to be mercifully euthanased by her owners.

These lovely dogs had diminished quality and length of life because of breeders who only wanted to make money. Both came from the RSPCA or other rescue organisations, where they had been dumped by breeders or owners when they didn't turn out to be the perfect "designer dog".

KyleWeiss wrote:I like morphs, but there's something wonderful about the real thing, which as I was mentioning with leopard geckoes, the hard work the breeders have done have made a fad out of these lizards and have almost forgotten it's natural roots. I hope the blueys never have this problem.
KW


I hope not either. I love the beautiful colour variations that *naturally* turn up in the captive population. Having and breeding two great looking skinks and getting awesome coloured babies is one thing. Deliberately breeding and inbreeding again and again for one cosmetic trait is something I will never approve of.
Ruth

--------



Mum of

Drazil - 126 grams

and

Tye - 173 grams

(Four-month-old Easterns)
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Colin Hamilton
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re hyper

Postby Colin Hamilton » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:55 am

mouseinamilkbottle wrote:A lot of albino animals don't survive in the wild because of lack of camouflage from predators and attacks from their own species. I think in the caresheet it mentions a member who had an albino baby born to one of their BTS, and the mother immediately turned around and killed it before the owner could prevent it.

Albinos (and hypermelanistic creatures) are an aberration in nature, and nature tends to act accordingly, unfortunately.
The bluetongues pictured are absolute melanistic and albino from the snake ranch,doubt they would be eaten by the mother,ive had bts babys come aut with two heads and the mother doesnt eat them,at least while still alive.Yeh i suppose John Wiegal and snake ranch havent been accused of puppy farming yet so they are doing well.Oh well ive got some hope of getting some down the track,to edd they would be a mirage,disapearing at the last moment into a sandstorm,before changing into a Mack truck running the helpless little jackyl over outside his hidy hole :P :lol:
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Postby Edward » Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:54 am

Thanks for thinking about me, Colin.

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Re: re hyper

Postby mouseinamilkbottle » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:05 am

Colin Hamilton wrote:The bluetongues pictured are absolute melanistic and albino from the snake ranch,doubt they would be eaten by the mother,ive had bts babys come aut with two heads and the mother doesnt eat them,at least while still alive.


I think it varies from mother to mother, but "culling" by the mother does happen in many species.

Colin Hamilton wrote:Yeh i suppose John Wiegal and snake ranch havent been accused of puppy farming yet so they are doing well.


Yeah, don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with what those guys are doing there, with those particular skinks. I wasn't referring to them, but to breeders of any kind of species that only care about profit and not the animals themselves. Didn't mean to be vague, if I gave that impression.
Ruth

--------



Mum of

Drazil - 126 grams

and

Tye - 173 grams

(Four-month-old Easterns)
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Postby Lea » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:13 am

I think they all look fabulous! :love:
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Postby Zbiz » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:57 am

IMO, i dont think leopard geckos have become a fad.... 30 years from now we will still have them and they still will be americas favorite small lizard. natural looking leos are still around in the pet trade... i have a couple myself. Are "morphs" good or bad? well i honestly think thats based on taste. Leo breeders never injected their animals with color or mutated them in some lab. The leopard geckos had these genes the whole time, we just brought them to the surface, even the crazy ones like Kelli's Enigma Leos.
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Colin Hamilton
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re hyper

Postby Colin Hamilton » Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:23 pm

Edward wrote:Thanks for thinking about me, Colin.

:revenge:
Thought you was still alive and lurking around cyber space :lol: Looking good the albino bluetongues,they look better all the time :hot:
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Postby KyleWeiss » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:57 pm

Zbiz wrote:IMO, i dont think leopard geckos have become a fad.... 30 years from now we will still have them and they still will be americas favorite small lizard. natural looking leos are still around in the pet trade... i have a couple myself. Are "morphs" good or bad? well i honestly think thats based on taste. Leo breeders never injected their animals with color or mutated them in some lab. The leopard geckos had these genes the whole time, we just brought them to the surface, even the crazy ones like Kelli's Enigma Leos.


They aren't a fad overall, the quest to get the next, biggest, brightest, thing has become a kind of herper's "holy grail," and I think it's become overrated and much more business rather than simply reptile keeping.

You mention leopard geckoes aren't injected with anything or mutated them in a lab, however, they mutate breeding siblings and young to parents all the time, which is basically the same thing as gene manipulation in a lab, though it takes hundreds of tries rather than genetic research. :noknow:

Of the reptile shows I've been to, pet stores and even on the internet, it's very hard to get a TRUE wild-colored leopard gecko. There is evidence of breeding with stripes, the high-yellows, etc, and like I said, the wild kind are basically muted mustard yellow with dark brown spots that are tightly patterened. They aren't wanted like the beauty-contest winners.

KW
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Re: re hyper

Postby Zach » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:42 am

Colin Hamilton wrote:
mouseinamilkbottle wrote:A lot of albino animals don't survive in the wild because of lack of camouflage from predators and attacks from their own species. I think in the caresheet it mentions a member who had an albino baby born to one of their BTS, and the mother immediately turned around and killed it before the owner could prevent it.

Albinos (and hypermelanistic creatures) are an aberration in nature, and nature tends to act accordingly, unfortunately.
The bluetongues pictured are absolute melanistic and albino from the snake ranch,doubt they would be eaten by the mother,ive had bts babys come aut with two heads and the mother doesnt eat them,at least while still alive.Yeh i suppose John Wiegal and snake ranch havent been accused of puppy farming yet so they are doing well.Oh well ive got some hope of getting some down the track,to edd they would be a mirage,disapearing at the last moment into a sandstorm,before changing into a Mack truck running the helpless little jackyl over outside his hidy hole :P :lol:



That was Ray, if he sees this, I'm sure he'll tell the story. I think it was a patternless Eastern, and as I recall, Ray was quite distraught over the event.

I think both beardies and leos have been bred into the ground and there's "morphs" so weird out there it blows my mind. The names kill me. Holy God.

I want to keep the BTS simple and will always strive to keep it simple.

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Postby Zach » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:42 am

Johan wrote:That's my pic with the 2 albino BTS :ohyes:
Same pic as in the Australian reptiles magazine.

John Weigel asked me to sex the black BTS and HET albinos last time I was overthere. Not easy.
So I got to play with them for a few hours. Cool looking lizards.

Johan.



YES!! I forgot to mention that....you can see Johan's picture also on the Albino page.

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Postby Richard.C » Wed May 16, 2007 12:32 am

i believe they r called salt and pepper in the article on them,i think they look fine,i dont have a prob with people breeding them,i wouldnt spend the coin on one though,and whats to stop some one crossing with a northern and start selling so called albino northerns,im waiting for it to happen with the carpets in australia,we have an albino darwin carpet strain and im thinking wont be long if not all ready that more carpet subspecies will pop on to the scene,i think if they keep them pure within the subspecies all good but some people r to greedy for that
just my 2 cents :|
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Postby mouseinamilkbottle » Wed May 16, 2007 7:20 pm

Old thread!
Ruth

--------



Mum of

Drazil - 126 grams

and

Tye - 173 grams

(Four-month-old Easterns)

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