Does anybody else have to “wake up” their BTS each day? Is he trying to brumate?

[ellbanger]

Yet another potentially idiotic question from me...

Basil’s approaching 8 months now and so far everything has been pretty smooth sailing. He’s shed twice since I got him and has almost doubled in length/weight in the ~2.5 months I’ve had him. However, it’s just occurred to me to ask whether or not it’s normal for me to have to “wake him up” every day.

By “wake him up” I mean: if I don’t go rummaging through his substrate in the morning to drag his ass out of bed, he will stay burrowed down (in the coldest corner of the tank?! Why?!) for daaaaays at a time. Initially I thought he was attempting to brumate (as it is winter here) and since the general consensus is to avoid letting them do so in their first year, I extended his hours of heat/light to a 17 hour cycle (5am-10pm). This worked for a little while but he’s definitely reverted to his burrow-happy ways.

The main reason this concerns me is that if I “wake him up” he will bask, eat and poop as normal - he’ll also spend the whole day in and out of his hot hide; basking; exploring; etc. If I don’t, he WILL come out to eat (based on the fact his food is gone) but will burrow straight back down and won’t bask or poop (I know this for a fact because I am borderline obsessed with checking/sifting for poop). Obviously I’m concerned about this because I don’t want him eating and then just going straight back to “sleep” as I know how important it is for him to be warming up and pooping.

He has plenty of hides (two cold and two warm, plus an abundance of fake ivy to creep through/hide in all over his tank) and I THINK my temps are okay...averaging 35 on the hot side and low-mid 20s on the cold side. The ambient temperature of the room he is in doesn’t get below 20 degrees overnight. His current globe is 100watt which is just enough to keep the temps where I want them. To be honest, when I have a 150w bulb he’s much more active and the problem subsides/I don’t have to “wake” him, BUT with a 150w halogen globe his basking spot reaches almost 50 degrees and I’m terrified of burning him (even though I see plenty a wild BTS basking on surfaces that would well exceed those temps in summer).

Additional info, he also has a 10.0 UVB bulb above his basking spot that runs on the same timer cycle as his heat bulb; he also receives a D3/calcium supplement on roughly every 2nd feed. Currently fed 3x a week.

Just typing this out makes me feel like an idiot, and that I either need to quit being an annoying human, quit waking him up and quit feeding him until he ceases this (what I assume is) attempted brumation, OR ramp things up with a 150w bulb (but what to do about the temp of his basking spot?). Can the experts please chime in and tell me to either leave the poor little guy alone, or heat the poor little guy up? I’m open to any and all criticism, don’t be shy!

[Yeshika]

Mine is doing this too, at this time of year. He'll get up to eat and drink, but otherwise goes straight back to his hide out.
He's not brumating, but I can only assume that even if they're not brumating they still slow down over winter. This is my first full winter with him.
I'll put his food in, he'll eat half a meal, then have a wander around. If he's in a good mood I let him out to have a cuddle, but yeah, over winter there has been far less activity.

[splashy07]

I don't know how your seasons are over there, but if he is indeed trying to brumate let him be. It is an important part of their life cycle and will lead to a longer healthier life, as it is what they are supposed to do. I know some discourage it but it shouldn't be.

[kingofnobbys]

In rainy stormy weather, I have this going on with all my skinks and dragons. They all sense it's nasty outside and stay under their hides unless I get them up.

The two eastern BTs were hunkered down , awake , but staying in bed , except for outings to drink, poo and check the food dishes.
The eastern water skink has been disappearing for 3 or 4 days at a time ,coming out for drink, bath/ splash and check her food dish.
The two central bearded dragons have been spending most their day under one of the hides , but are usually awake and basking for a but each day.
The rainbow skinks have adopted strange hours, they sleep in all day and come out and give me the stare about 10pm each night ( food please ).

Unless you little skink ( he's still only a juvenile at 9 months ) staying down for weeks at a time, he's just doing the same as mine, hunkering down because the weather for the last week has be nasty wet and miserable ( until Monday this week here in Lake Macquarie ) - weather in Sydney will have been similar .

Aside, I was advised many years ago by a very good reptile vet that if your skink is under 12 months old, it's best that it not be allowed to brumate, wild juvenile skinks don't either, I've seen my resident wild juvenile skinks every warm sunny day out basking any day it's been warmer and sunny right through winter.

[kingofnobbys]

Yet another potentially idiotic question from me...

Basil’s approaching 8 months now and so far everything has been pretty smooth sailing. He’s shed twice since I got him and has almost doubled in length/weight in the ~2.5 months I’ve had him. However, it’s just occurred to me to ask whether or not it’s normal for me to have to “wake him up” every day.

By “wake him up” I mean: if I don’t go rummaging through his substrate in the morning to drag his ass out of bed, he will stay burrowed down (in the coldest corner of the tank?! Why?!) for daaaaays at a time. Initially I thought he was attempting to brumate (as it is winter here) and since the general consensus is to avoid letting them do so in their first year, I extended his hours of heat/light to a 17 hour cycle (5am-10pm). This worked for a little while but he’s definitely reverted to his burrow-happy ways.

The main reason this concerns me is that if I “wake him up” he will bask, eat and poop as normal - he’ll also spend the whole day in and out of his hot hide; basking; exploring; etc. If I don’t, he WILL come out to eat (based on the fact his food is gone) but will burrow straight back down and won’t bask or poop (I know this for a fact because I am borderline obsessed with checking/sifting for poop). Obviously I’m concerned about this because I don’t want him eating and then just going straight back to “sleep” as I know how important it is for him to be warming up and pooping.

He has plenty of hides (two cold and two warm, plus an abundance of fake ivy to creep through/hide in all over his tank) and I THINK my temps are okay...averaging 35 on the hot side and low-mid 20s on the cold side. The ambient temperature of the room he is in doesn’t get below 20 degrees overnight. His current globe is 100watt which is just enough to keep the temps where I want them. To be honest, when I have a 150w bulb he’s much more active and the problem subsides/I don’t have to “wake” him, BUT with a 150w halogen globe his basking spot reaches almost 50 degrees and I’m terrified of burning him (even though I see plenty a wild BTS basking on surfaces that would well exceed those temps in summer).
<<< the temperatures sound OK for an eastern to me., I'd nudge up the night time temp to maybe 24 degC , my skinks and dragon live in the warmest are of the house ( big split aircon runs 24/7 in reverse cycle set to 24 degC overnight and my gang all love it.

Additional info, he also has a 10.0 UVB bulb above his basking spot that runs on the same timer cycle as his heat bulb; he also receives a D3/calcium supplement on roughly every 2nd feed. Currently fed 3x a week.
<<< what brand , type and wattage if the 10.0 UVB bulb , and how old is it. I replace my 26W UVB200s mounted in nanohoods under the lid and 20cm from the basking spot every 6 months.

Just typing this out makes me feel like an idiot, and that I either need to quit being an annoying human, quit waking him up and quit feeding him until he ceases this (what I assume is) attempted brumation, OR ramp things up with a 150w bulb (but what to do about the temp of his basking spot?). Can the experts please chime in and tell me to either leave the poor little guy alone, or heat the poor little guy up? I’m open to any and all criticism, don’t be shy!

If you want to bond with him, it wont hurt to wake him up and give him a snuggle and some treats by hand. Silkworms . BSFL , woodies or crickets are excellent treats for a juvenile eastern .

My water skink , usually likes to co her own thing , but every now and then she's standing in the corner of her 120L converted tub, scratching with front claws and looking at me = I want daddy quality time today , please get me out.

[ellbanger]

Thanks for your input, kingsofnobbys. Always appreciate you lending your expertise!

Re: the night time temps, I forgot to add - on the “warm” side of his tank there’s a small heat mat (on the outside of the glass, on the back side not underneath) that comes on at night and heats the immediate surrounding area under the substrate to around 23-ish degrees. That’s always where he goes overnight, he burrows down into the substrate right up against the glass where the heat mat is. He’s in my bedroom so there’s no way I’m heating the entire room to 24 degrees - I’d sweat to death in my bed!

His UVB is an ExoTerra Repti Glo 26w 10.0 compact (manufacturer claims it has a reach of 50cm which I’m not dumb enough to believe, so it’s about 20cm above his basking spot). Purchased in June, So should have another two months. However, the plan is to eventually get some tubes to cover his whole enclosure - but I’m not going to do that until I upgrade his enclosure. His current is a mesh top 900L, I’m on a wait list for the 1200L with recessed top for tubes. No point fucking around with hoods and tubes and trying to get enough UVB through the mesh top when I’m looking at an upgraded enclosure within the next 2 months. When I do, I’ll be getting tubes and replacing 6 monthly.

I’ve been waking him on purpose and he’s just so much more active, curious, pooping more etc when I do so I’ve decided to continue doing so. I assume when the warmer weather hits, he’ll be out and about more anyway as the ambient room temp will be warmer/more consistent.

Thanks again for your help! I’ll be heading to my local rep specialist store soon so will hopefully pick up some BSFL, love snails, or silkworms (he’s not big on the canned larvae and frankly I’m not a fan of the smell). Can’t do woodies or crickets, sorry...I have a phobia of anything with more than 6 legs that can move faster than I can

[kingofnobbys]

Thanks for your input, kingsofnobbys. Always appreciate you lending your expertise!

<<< I wish I was an expert . LOL

Re: the night time temps, I forgot to add - on the “warm” side of his tank there’s a small heat mat (on the outside of the glass, on the back side not underneath) that comes on at night and heats the immediate surrounding area under the substrate to around 23-ish degrees. That’s always where he goes overnight, he burrows down into the substrate right up against the glass where the heat mat is. He’s in my bedroom so there’s no way I’m heating the entire room to 24 degrees - I’d sweat to death in my bed!

I have a 7W heatpad in all my skinks tanks and tubs ( except the delicate ( rainbow ) skinks .
My heat pad a simple film type heatpads , I simply sandwich them between some old wall ceramic wall tiles ( 1994 bathroom renovation , I rescued the bit of wall they were glued to and went crazy one day with an angle grinder and removed the old bits of wall and most the glue to save the tiles - very nice old tiles ) , I use cloth tape to hold the sandwiches together , add an elcheapo ebay switching thermostat with probe limited to 39 degC max , and Hey Presto , thermostat controlled heatslab.

Works well with 5W heatpads too ( only need 2 tiles instead of 4 ).

I have my skink thermostat controlled heatslabs set to stay at 33 - 35 degC and they run 24/7. I have a hide on top each skink's heatslab and the hide doubles as the basking spot and the warm hide for daytime and overnight. They each have a cool zone hide and usually choose the sleep in the cool hide or next to it.
My living area rarely gets colder than 24 degC , rev/cyc split aircon runs 24/7 in cold months and is set to stay at 25 degC, coldest the delicate skinks in their unheated tub get to experience and they seem to be thriving and very active

His UVB is an ExoTerra Repti Glo 26w 10.0 compact (manufacturer claims it has a reach of 50cm which I’m not dumb enough to believe, so it’s about 20cm above his basking spot). Purchased in June, So should have another two months
Those exo terra 26W UVB200 compacts are good for 6 months , my solarmeter readings indicate the UVB flux falls from 160 microW UVB / sq.cm to about 45 microW UVB / sq.cm ( 15 hr photoperiod over 6 months ) , I'm due to replace my 26W UVB200s at the end this month ( thx for the reminder) .

However, the plan is to eventually get some tubes to cover his whole enclosure - but I’m not going to do that until I upgrade his enclosure. His current is a mesh top 900L, I’m on a wait list for the 1200L with recessed top for tubes. No point fucking around with hoods and tubes and trying to get enough UVB through the mesh top when I’m looking at an upgraded enclosure within the next 2 months. When I do, I’ll be getting tubes and replacing 6 monthly.

I’ve been waking him on purpose and he’s just so much more active, curious, pooping more etc when I do so I’ve decided to continue doing so. I assume when the warmer weather hits, he’ll be out and about more anyway as the ambient room temp will be warmer/more consistent.

Thanks again for your help! I’ll be heading to my local rep specialist store soon so will hopefully pick up some BSFL, love snails, or silkworms (he’s not big on the canned larvae and frankly I’m not a fan of the smell). Can’t do woodies or crickets, sorry...I have a phobia of anything with more than 6 legs that can move faster than I can

Best place I've found to source BSFL is BIOSUPPLIES (Sydney) , the large BSFL stay wrigglely for a few weeks before they pupate. I simply place them in an old rectangular bug tub ontop a sheet of absorbant paper towel ( helps clean them up nicely and helps keep them dry ).
https://biosupplies.net.au/black-soldie ... rvae-50gm/ , I usually buy 2 of these tubs each 2 or 3 weeks, my BTs and dragons will eat up to 30 of these each in a sitting.

LIVEFOODS also sell BSFL , but ship in a calico bag mixed with soil, PITB separating the lavae from the dirt.

LIVEFOODS LIMITED ( Sunshine Coast QLD) have silkworms ( small, medium and large ) and chow powder ( you mix with boiled water , then nuke in the microwave and let set and cool.
There was a guy in Sydney who did silkworms only but I think he's gone out of business.
http://www.livefoods.com.au/live-insects/Silkworms
Watch GUMTREE for silkworms and mulberry tree leaves , anytime from October to May , often see people selling worms by the 100 for about 10c per worm and leaves by the hundred for about $5 per bag.
My old links from my favourates might work ???
https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-other-pets ... ?sort=rank
https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-garden/syd ... ?sort=rank

Live clean cultivated / farmed as feeders garden snails are scarcer , but can be found too. I usually buy live farmed snails by a bunnet of 12 for my BTs as treats.
I think this place has snails , http://www.martynsmealworms.com.au/garden_snails.asp but I've never bought off them.

[ellbanger]

I'm actually really interested in the setup you've mentioned re: heat mats for rearing tubs - since I just got word that Basil's new deluxe enclosure is ready for pickup tomorrow (yay!) I'm now left with a 900Lx450Dx600H glass enclosure which I was GOING to sell, but...

...I kind of want a baby Children's python

(Brace yourselves, this is extremely non-skink-related): I know a baby Antaresia childreni needs to be in a much smaller enclosure for the first 12 or so months, so I've been wondering more about heat mats and how best to utilise one in a rearing tub for a baby python. The photo you posted is a bit confusing though - it looks as though its set on top of the tub, with gaps on either side? Not something that will work with a baby python. Would a 5w heat mat on a thermostat work if stuck on the outside of a rearing tub with lid? Not skink related I know, but I'm mainly looking for reassurance that it won't melt the plastic!

(End non-skink-related cr*p)

Since I'll be picking up my new enclosure (yay!!) tomorrow, what tube UVB would you recommend? It's 1200L and 600H but keep in mind I build my substrate up to about 25-30cm high as that's what Basil likes. What watt/rating UVB tube would you recommend? I assume they have the same ~6mo lifespan?

LOVE the links for the BSFL - they're not easy/cheap to come by at the regular reptile/aquarium-specific pet shops! How do you find BIOSUPPLIES shipping times? Buying silkworms shouldn't be a hassle (assuming I buy from suppliers or gumtree, not the "pet" ones from a pet shop). I'm lucky enough to have a pesticide-free mulberry tree at work so leaves are thankfully not an issue.

My planned source for clean feeder snails is KV pets (if you're in Sydney I'm sure you know of them). A pricier option probably, but I'll only be buying them as a "treat" rather than a daily staple as I do feed cat food (I also use the extoterra shelled snails in a can, they're cheaper, but I know your opinion on cat/dog food and canned reptile food!) and I'll be splitting the cost of live snails with my cousin/housemate who has an Eastern Short-Necked Turtle.

Now...does BIOSUPPLIES do feeder earthworms? Because if so, that's the holy grail.

[ellbanger]

I don't know how your seasons are over there, but if he is indeed trying to brumate let him be. It is an important part of their life cycle and will lead to a longer healthier life, as it is what they are supposed to do. I know some discourage it but it shouldn't be.

Sorry splashy, I've just seen this!

Our seasons here are..basically exactly what a wild Eastern BTS experiences - I'm in Sydney, NSW. Obviously, though, my Eastern doesn't actually live outside and has much more stable temps, lighting, no rain, etc.

My reluctance to let him brumate has been based on recommendations/advice I've seen to NOT let a juvenile (<12month) skink brumate due to the fact they can lose a lot of condition if allowed to do so. TC Houston is one highly regarded (IMO - but if he's off, please let me know!) source who recommends upping lights and temps to ensure a skink younger than 12mo doesn't brumate. If my enclosure's temps reached what the actual local climate temps did, then for sure I'd let him do his thing. The confusion comes because my enclosure's temps aren't being deliberately dropped to mimic the outdoor climate - so...what exactly is the right course of action?

For now, extending the heat/UVB hours and rousing him out of his favoured lightly-heated (via heat mat on the outside) burrowing spot every morning has given me a more active, more curious, more exploratory, more hungry and more poopy (very important!) skink which I'm personally inclined to be happy with; because his enclosure temps aren't dipping low enough to induce a "proper" brumation. I guess I've kind of gone with the idea that if his temps haven't been deliberately lowered to mimic the local climate (which would be about 60F during the day and 48F or lower at night), then it's more beneficial for him to be "woken up" and kept active, fed and pooping than it is for him to be left in a weird half-brumating state where he comes out to eat sometimes, but won't bask (and therefore won't get the heat he needs for proper digestion).

Of course: you are the expert; I'm not!

That being said: we are finally entering the first days of spring here and we're already seeing some unseasonably warm days (like 82F or more) which has no doubt roused Basil out of his wintery state. I also made an interesting discovery: I moved the basking tile out of the enclosure. Where Basil would never bask before (on the tile directly under the heat lamp), he now happily basks for most of the day just lying directly on the substrate. Given that my temps were all good (I have an IR thermometer to check surface temps of the basking spot, so it wasn't getting too hot), I can only assume that his weird personal preference is to bask on top of the substrate so that he has the ability to immediately burrow down if needed? Either way: I have a happier, more active and more poopy lizard.

For his next winter, I'm still curious as to what I should do - I'm happy to allow a "proper" brumation but since I live in the exact Eastern BTS climate...does that mean I just slowly decrease all light and heat until I'm using none for 3 months? And then gently warm it back up?

[kingofnobbys]

I'm actually really interested in the setup you've mentioned re: heat mats for rearing tubs - since I just got word that Basil's new deluxe enclosure is ready for pickup tomorrow (yay!) I'm now left with a 900Lx450Dx600H glass enclosure which I was GOING to sell, but...

...I kind of want a baby Children's python

(Brace yourselves, this is extremely non-skink-related): I know a baby Antaresia childreni needs to be in a much smaller enclosure for the first 12 or so months, so I've been wondering more about heat mats and how best to utilise one in a rearing tub for a baby python. The photo you posted is a bit confusing though - it looks as though its set on top of the tub, with gaps on either side? Not something that will work with a baby python. Would a 5w heat mat on a thermostat work if stuck on the outside of a rearing tub with lid? Not skink related I know, but I'm mainly looking for reassurance that it won't melt the plastic!

Just sitting on a small tub for the photo.
I place the heatslab in my tanks ( big ones 4ft x 2ft stacked on top each other are old and daggy and very much NOT PRETTY plywood , the word is rough and ready - I aint no carpenter) and in my current 120L ALL-SET (Bunnings) converted rearing tubs .
They sit on plywood floor or on the bottom of the plastic tubs ( with a sheet of absorbant paper towel under them , they don't harm the timber or the plastic . The thermostat plugs into a powerboard and it prevents the heatpad (slab) from overheating ( you can't trust the internal temperature limiting circuits in heat pad ).



(End non-skink-related cr*p)

Since I'll be picking up my new enclosure (yay!!) tomorrow, what tube UVB would you recommend? It's 1200L and 600H but keep in mind I build my substrate up to about 25-30cm high as that's what Basil likes. What watt/rating UVB tube would you recommend? I assume they have the same ~6mo lifespan?

LOVE the links for the BSFL - they're not easy/cheap to come by at the regular reptile/aquarium-specific pet shops! How do you find BIOSUPPLIES shipping times? Buying silkworms shouldn't be a hassle (assuming I buy from suppliers or gumtree, not the "pet" ones from a pet shop). I'm lucky enough to have a pesticide-free mulberry tree at work so leaves are thankfully not an issue.
Biosupplies are very good and QUICK. I order on Sunday , they arrive in the mail on Tuesday.

My planned source for clean feeder snails is KV pets (if you're in Sydney I'm sure you know of them). A pricier option probably, but I'll only be buying them as a "treat" rather than a daily staple as I do feed cat food (I also use the extoterra shelled snails in a can, they're cheaper, but I know your opinion on cat/dog food and canned reptile food!) and I'll be splitting the cost of live snails with my cousin/housemate who has an Eastern Short-Necked Turtle.

Not in Sydney and avoid the place the plague , hate driving anywhere in Sydney .

Now...does BIOSUPPLIES do feeder earthworms? Because if so, that's the holy grail.

Can't comment on buying feeder earthworms , only worms I ever buy are bloodworms (LIVE) and beachworms ( LIVE ) as I'm too lazy to gather them myself for fishing bait these days .

I do have an old favourates link to http://briansworms.com/worms/ . They have composting worms ( Red Wrigglers & African Night Crawlers ) will they fit the bill ?

[splashy07]

I'm going to keep this short as not to be confusing. I have had both easterns and northerns go into brumation their first year. Being I let them eat all they want the first year they've got plenty to sustain themselves. My easterns are born in april and northerns june-july. brumation starts here around late october-november. I used to discourage brumation the first year but no longer do.
I also find my easterns do not like extreme heat. Perhaps the basking tile got too hot. Anything above 85f they seem to retreat to the cooler end.
This is my own personal experience, and of course not to be taken as gospel.