This is what happens here because people are willing to buy "imported" BTs from petshops and at shows.

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This is what happens here because people are willing to buy "imported" BTs from petshops and at shows.

Postby kingofnobbys » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:55 pm

http://www.lilydambrosio.com.au/media-r ... melbourne/
Image
https://www.news.com.au/news/national/d ... 4fffae9774

Keep this in mind next time you decide to buy another non-native not captive bred from captively breed parents reptile that's native to Australia, SE Asia, Africa, or Sth America. You are supporting cruel criminals.

Please demand that the reptiles you buy are captive bred from LOCAL captively bred breeding stock by LOCAL BREEDERS (NOT reptile farmers !!).
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Re: This is what happens here because people are willing to buy "imported" BTs from petshops and at shows.

Postby mb606587 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:44 pm

While I see your point and I do agree with you, it is important to make the distinction between ILLEGAL wildlife smuggling as depicted in your photos, and LEGAL importation, which an overwhelming majority of the reptiles found in pet shops and reptile shows are a result of, at least here in the United States. So stating that purchasing imported Blue Tongue Skinks at a reptile show or pet shop is akin to supporting cruel criminals is a bit of a hyperbole, however I believe that you could make a more valid argument by saying its morally wrong to purchase imported reptiles and many would agree with you. It would be naïve to believe that legally imported reptiles are always kept in conditions that could even remotely be described as humane. It is not uncommon for imported reptiles to be found dead on arrival and the conditions they are often kept in for weeks prior to exportation can be horrifying. For example, in the 1980's and into the 1990's, when Monkey Tailed Skinks were routinely exported from the Solomon Islands, they were often zip-tied by the tails to branches in the enclosure, sometimes for several weeks, in order to house as many as possible and keep them from fighting one another. As a result, many lost blood circulation to the tail, which they are so famous for, and required amputations. It's no secret that exporters to this day house multiple Blue Tongue Skinks together, oftentimes in inadequately sized enclosures. It's for this reason, that you will commonly see skinks for sale that will be missing portions of the tail or even sometimes limbs, due to fighting, along with diseases and parasites that are easily spread. I say this, especially during these months of the year when captive bred baby skinks are NOT available, despite what you may be told by the "breeder", with the intent to inform people who may not be aware that the baby skink they just purchased at the show may actually be in frail health.
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Re: This is what happens here because people are willing to buy "imported" BTs from petshops and at shows.

Postby kingofnobbys » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:26 pm

Just keep in mind , it's totally illegal to export native reptiles from Australia , Indonesia, Solomons, etc , all reptiles shipped into places like the USA are trafficked illegally .
ie https://phys.org/news/2017-05-japanese- ... nesia.html
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Re: This is what happens here because people are willing to buy "imported" BTs from petshops and at shows.

Postby mb606587 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:50 pm

Yes as you know very well, Australia does not export ANY wildlife, which is why rarer species of BTS (at least for the rest of us) Westerns, Centralians, Shinglebacks, and even some of the melanistic and hypermelanistic Easterns are so commonly smuggled. The Solomon Islands, for the most part does not allow exportation of certain species, however every few years, they will allow for legal exportation of a certain number of animals. Indonesia, however, does legally export, at least Blue Tongue Skinks, in high numbers annually. I'm sure there are certain species of reptiles that will not qualify for legal exportation there, or even certain countries, like Australia for instance, where importation of Indonesian species is illegal, hence the need for smugglers, however I can assure you here in the United States, it is completely legal and common to receive imported Blue Tongue Skinks. If not, US Fish and Wildlife would have an absolute field day raiding every expo in the country selling illegally obtained wild caught Indonesian skinks.
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Re: This is what happens here because people are willing to buy "imported" BTs from petshops and at shows.

Postby mb606587 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:15 pm

I will post links to two separate videos showing a prominent American reptile dealer receiving live reptile shipments from both Indonesia and the Solomon Islands. Both shipments are received at Los Angeles International Airport and inspected by US Border Protection and Customs officials. Obviously if he was engaging in illegal and criminal behavior, it wouldn't be in his best interest to post the evidence online. With that said, I do agree with you that whether legally imported or illegally smuggled, the conditions are mostly inhumane for these reptiles.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ReSR-8k4O4

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkr69eMLQL8
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Re: This is what happens here because people are willing to buy "imported" BTs from petshops and at shows.

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:45 am

mb606587 wrote:Yes as you know very well, Australia does not export ANY wildlife, which is why rarer species of BTS (at least for the rest of us) Westerns, Centralians, Shinglebacks, and even some of the melanistic and hypermelanistic Easterns are so commonly smuggled. The Solomon Islands, for the most part does not allow exportation of certain species, however every few years, they will allow for legal exportation of a certain number of animals. Indonesia, however, does legally export, at least Blue Tongue Skinks, in high numbers annually. I'm sure there are certain species of reptiles that will not qualify for legal exportation there, or even certain countries, like Australia for instance, where importation of Indonesian species is illegal, hence the need for smugglers, however I can assure you here in the United States, it is completely legal and common to receive imported Blue Tongue Skinks. If not, US Fish and Wildlife would have an absolute field day raiding every expo in the country selling illegally obtained wild caught Indonesian skinks.



Only people who can import wildlife into the USA are those who have legitimate (HARD TO GET) permits to do so (these are sometimes issued b USFWS) see http://www.fws.gov
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Re: This is what happens here because people are willing to buy "imported" BTs from petshops and at shows.

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:52 am

mb606587 wrote:I will post links to two separate videos showing a prominent American reptile dealer receiving live reptile shipments from both Indonesia and the Solomon Islands. Both shipments are received at Los Angeles International Airport and inspected by US Border Protection and Customs officials. Obviously if he was engaging in illegal and criminal behavior, it wouldn't be in his best interest to post the evidence online. With that said, I do agree with you that whether legally imported or illegally smuggled, the conditions are mostly inhumane for these reptiles.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ReSR-8k4O4

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkr69eMLQL8



Wildlife Protection Law

Indonesian wildlife based on the law is divided into two, the protected and the unprotected. According to the Law number 5 year 1990 concerning the Conservation of the Natural Resources and the Ecosystem, the trade of the protected wildlife is illegal and liable to a maximum of five year prison term and a 100 millions Indonesia Rupiah fine.

https://www.profauna.net/en/facts-about ... an-animals , exports are rife because some in law enforcement there are engaged in the trafficking (at the very least take kickbacks to turn a blind eye).
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Re: This is what happens here because people are willing to buy "imported" BTs from petshops and at shows.

Postby mb606587 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:47 am

According to your article, Indonesian law criminalizes the export of PROTECTED species only. Endangered species of reptiles, such as the Blue Spotted Monitor, Pig-nosed turtle, and various species of crocodile fall into this category of protected. Blue Tongue Skinks, which are currently not threatened do not. Furthermore, there is the Convention of International Trade in Endangered Species of Wildlife and Fauna, or CITES, which subjects international trade of selected species to certain controls. Blue Tongue Skinks are not subjected to any regulations through CITES. Monkey Tailed Skinks from the Solomon Islands, however, are listed under Appendix II as not yet endangered, but vulnerable, therefore exportation is heavily controlled internationally. Is one of the reasons why you can find the common Indonesian Blue Tongue Skink for $150 at every reptile show in the country, yet Prehensile Tailed Skinks are extremely rare and often not found for any less than $1000.
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Re: This is what happens here because people are willing to buy "imported" BTs from petshops and at shows.

Postby Cherbear » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:59 am

Mb606587 is spot on. Indonesian blue tongue skinks (and many other species) are imported in large numbers, legally. Unless the species are protected, it is incorrect to say they are smuggled.
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Re: This is what happens here because people are willing to buy "imported" BTs from petshops and at shows.

Postby mb606587 » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:36 am

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LF0TLKViWEA
Here is another video of an American reptile dealer openly touring an Indonesian farm to preview stock. There is a vast difference in the nature as these men are very transparent in their dealings, and even label the shipping crates with a "Live Reptiles" warning, as opposed to illegal smugglers whom hide reptiles to avoid detection in anything they can to include food packaging. I know as an American, I wouldn't openly be filming an illicit smuggling operation in a foreign country, and I could assume this individual who has a successful business and vast wealth, wouldn't risk losing that or even his freedom, while in Indonesia, if he weren't 110% sure his business endeavors were completely legal, especially considering he travels there quite often if you have a look at his video channel. Likewise, I'm sure the facility would not be agreeable to being exposed either if they were actively breaking the law. If anything else this video is an interesting look into the highly lucrative world of importation/exportation and reptile farming for those who aren't familiar. I can understand your concern and reservation on the issue seeing as Australia has such long-held strict laws governing the conservation of their wildlife, and it must be strange to say the least to see other countries operating in this fashion. Arguing the issue of ethics in these cases would be highly appropriate, but arguing the legality is just not practical.

As to the issue of illegally smuggled Australian wildlife in the United States, my opinion is that it does occur, however not as commonly as one might think here in the US of A. People in the American hobby are generally of good character and don't tolerate smuggling. When we see random Joe Blows suddenly selling Western Blue Tongue Skinks or Bells Phase Lace Monitors, a lot of people start asking a lot of questions. We generally know exactly who the reputable breeders are who produce these rarer animals.

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