Dog food

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Re: Dog food

Postby mb606587 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:26 pm

Ok fair enough. One thing I don't like about your chart though is that it doesn't really specify how much of each food item should be offered. As evidenced by previous threads, new BTS owners sometimes get confused about what and how often they should be feeding their skink. Now that chart can be effective for somebody like you or me who already knows the proper amount to feed our skinks through experience, I wouldn't want somebody who doesn't know to think that it's okay to feed a mouse and then a bunch of insects 4 days a week. Which if somebody reading here didn't know, that wouldn't be a good idea.
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Re: Dog food

Postby kingofnobbys » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:45 pm

A rule of thumb often suggested is "the 15 minute rule" …. offer the insects or other protein source for 15 minutes , then remove the uneaten remains.

Of cause the keeper will soon get a good feel for how much of a particular food their skink will eat , so just offer about that much.

I offer a two or 3 live insects at a time, let the skink eat them , and then repeat , when the skink looses interest, that's my queue to stop.

All my pet dragons and skinks know the routine and know the food comes each day so are never starving , so unlikely to over-eat.
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Re: Dog food

Postby mb606587 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:08 pm

But beardies and BTS, although both omnivores, have different metabolisms. So while it is not uncommon for keepers to feed their bearded dragons every day, most BTS keepers do not and would find your method unconventional. Now I don't doubt that your method works well for your skinks, I'm not so sure it would work effectively for all. I know that one of my skinks is extremely food motivated, comes barreling out of his hide when his food bowl is placed in, and would definitely overeat if I allowed him to. Some of my other skinks will not eat right away and I have to leave them to their own. If you do feed small meals as you do, it can be done, but generally, most keepers have great success feeding approximately 2 tablespoons twice a week and that's what this site recommends as well.
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Re: Dog food

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:41 am

True to an extent .

It all comes down to volume of food give to the reptile per feed …. I'm very concervative , I'd rather give a small daily ration , than a big feed 2 times per week.

My BTs' are nudging 10 years old , and have not needed any vet treatment and seem to be quite happy and active .
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Re: Dog food

Postby mb606587 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:46 pm

I absolutely agree with you on it coming down to volume of food given per feeding. Some people prefer to feed every other day as well. There really is no wrong way if you are maintaining a healthy weight and providing the correct diet. But sometimes keeping it simple is best for people who don't necessarily have experience and or don't know. Because finding that balance of what is appropriate can be confusing, as people have already claimed, and sometimes it can take experience to get it right. You yourself said you have 10 years working with your diet, so you can effectively feed your skinks everyday and keep them healthy. Some others may accidentally overfeed trying to get it right. Which is why I like to refer to the food chart and information from our site as a guide. I'm not saying you're wrong in the way you feed your skinks but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to somebody just starting out as issues can arise if you aren't careful and knowledgeable.
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Re: Dog food

Postby Susann » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:19 pm

I'd first like to point out some good points that have been made on this thread already.
kingofnobbys wrote:Reasons why I don't offer cat or dog food to my pet skinks are as follows:

1) irrespective of how high the "quality" of even premium wet cat or dog foods are claimed to be , you have no idea what exactly is in the tin or package and they are ALL full of taste enhancers and emulsifiers and bonding jells and preservatives , I am particularly not keen on feeding preservatives and emulsifiers and unknown taste enhancers to my pet skinks as these have not been properly tested for reptiles.
mb606587 wrote:Can you say for sure that you know exactly what is in Repashy Grubpie which you recommended? Seems to me it appears to be a "gel" with similar preservatives. So I do know what's in my dog food just as I know what's in Repashy by reading the ingredients listed.
Your claim that it has not been properly tested is false. It has been fed for decades by many top breeders (Joe Ball, Ty Parks, TC Houston among others). I have decades of experience using it. I don't know what more testing or proof you need to show that it is a safe alternate protein staple.

kingofnobbys wrote:2) wrong kinds of fats and proteins that the skinks have not evolved to eat.
mb606587 wrote:You also claim skinks have not evolved to eat dog food. Have they evolved to eat boiled chicken and turkey?

kingofnobbys wrote:3) do not promote natural feeding / hunting behaviours in the reptiles.
mb606587 wrote:It does not promote natural feeding and hunting behaviors? Do pellets, Repashy, boiled chicken or turkey, all foods you recommended, promote that for them? Evolution has not crafted these guys into exceptional hunters. In the wild, they are primarily foragers and what many have labeled "opportunistic feeders." There is a reason worms and snails are their primary insects of choice. These slow moving insects are some of the only live prey that BTS can consistently hunt effectively.


Here are some old quotes I dug up; there are lots out there to be found as this discussion has been had many times on our forums. Unfortunately the people I'm quoting are no longer active here, but their advice and opinions are still solid as nothing has yet disproven what they said.

Katrina wrote:I think the main reasons dog food is still recommended here is because a lot of the biggest BTS breeders still use is as a staple and have for many, many years. It is easy to use because it has a decent Ca:P ratio and has a lot more vitamins and nutrients than muscle meat and is cost effective and convenient.

I'd love to know why the beardie pellets would be better than dog food for blueys. In my opinion, a diet of a variety of well gut loaded feeders would be ideal, but it isn't something that most keepers will be able to offer. If there is a good reason why people should pay more for beardie pellets over dog food then I would definitely recommend the pelleted diet instead.

I didn't believe in feeding dog food because it wasn't something they would find in the wild and it was full of who knows what. It just seemed wrong. This forum actually recommended a different diet, with emphasis on variety and things like boiled chicken breast and collards etc. Chicken breast seemed like the perfect, lean protein - simple and they loved it. And it wasn't so bad if you were careful and bought lots of greens and veggies and fed tons of variety. But we started seeing cases of MBD and other problems - the diet was over-complicated and when people cut corners there were huge issues. Not everyone has the time or desire to source out all kinds of variety. Fatal_S on here had lots of issues with the diet and even lost some BTS - luckily she shared all this and everyone learned from it.

That really changed my mind on the dog food thing - dog food is something experts have been using for decades with minimal extra ingredients added and they have great success. It isn't the other things they feed - they might add frozen veggies, but the diet is pretty much dog food. It works.

I now recommend it highly to beginners because even if they don't stick around and post and learn Ca:P ratios, oxalates, goitrogens, the merit of various veggies and the best and worst fruits to feed - even if they buy the BTS on a whim and don't really learn enough to care for it properly, if they feed a diet based on dog food the BTS will get decent Ca:P ratio, it will get lots of various vitamins and nutrients and it will be the simplest diet I can recommend that will have the most success. I recommend dog food because from what I have seen it is idiot proof - keep it simple and most people will be able to do it, even if they don't research or grate up squashes.


kingofnobbys wrote:4) my reptile vet advised strongly against giving my water skinks and later my blue tongue skinks these foods, her experience was that she regularly saw pet skinks who had serious obesity issues , mouth problems, MBD and fatty liver decease who were fed cat and dog foods as their main or only source of protein , she suggested I stick with boiled lean chicken / turkey mince , live snails and live insects for my skinks' protein sources.


Fatal_S wrote:I used to be against dogfood & supplements (in general the whole forum was). I spent all my time and effort and money buying human-grade foods to make meals with variety. I felt I was giving great care.

Then my skinks started showing signs of MBD. I tried altering the diet, adding more high-calcium greens. I was still avoiding dogfood/supplements. MBD kept getting worse. I went to the vet, and was recommended to avoid dogfood, but to give calcium w/o D3. So I did. It kept getting worse. At this point my tannies were in very bad shape and my Northerns were getting bumpy. Little Cloud the silver tanny had it worst. His bones were so deformed he couldn't grow.

It was Brad who pointed out to me that my human-grade meats (esp chicken breast) were terrible for calcium. No matter how much I added the meats were just sapping it all. I found out the big breeders tended to use dogfood/veggies/calcium w/ D3. I switched.

Very quickly the skinks started to show improvement. They began growing again, and the lumps they'd had evened out. Cloud was too badly damaged, as he grew his body couldn't handle it, and he passed away. That was probably one of the worst moment of my life; I knew I'd caused that with my narrow-minded thinking and refusal to see I had a big problem.


Jeff wrote:I don't think anyone here is trying to convince you that you should feed your skinks dog food. It just continuously sounds like you are saying that it is an inferior diet to what you choose to feed.

The fact is, people have fed largely the way you do, and people have fed mostly dog food to their skinks. Not for a few months, but for a few DECADES. The conclusion of these people is that dog food produces the healthiest skinks. You have the right to ignore that experience if you want to, and you can feed your skinks whatever you feel is best. The truth is though, both ways have already been tried, and the data is in.

I still keep hearing over and over that dog food is bad for skinks. Based on what evidence? I know it may be disgusting to look at or smell, and that it has things in it that I would never want to eat, but I am not a skink! I could not disagree more with comparing dog food in the diet of a BTS to fast food in the diet of a human. I agree that fast food has been proven to be unhealthy for humans if eaten in large quantities. I not only disagree that the same can be said for dog food and skinks, but the OPPOSITE has been PROVEN.

The thing I like most about a dog food based diet is that it is the one that people are the least likely to screw up. Nothing has been found that results in healthier skinks. This is not a theory. This has been tested over time. The belief that dog food is not healthy for BTS however IS a theory. One that has been proven false. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but the only way it can be denied is to completely discount the people who have spent the last three decades proving it.

I freely admit that it is possible to meet all of a bts's dietary needs without using dog food. My question is "why?". Why go to all the trouble to prepare food that MAY meet your animals needs as well as dog food, IF you do it exactly right? We KNOW that we can give them the best diet by simply starting with a dog food base. It has just never made sense to me why people resist so hard what has been proven. I realize that for some people it just makes them feel better to spend more time and effort on their animals, but I also know that others truly believe there is something wrong with dog food. My point is, if you can't support that claim with some kind of evidence (like some unhealthy blueys that can not be explained by other factors), then I don't think the claim should be made.
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Re: Dog food

Postby mb606587 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:34 pm

Excellent post. As I wrote sometime before, if you are feeding a homebrewed diet, you MUST be supplementing with multivitamin and calcium. And I'm no dietician so I don't really know the correct ratios and you probably don't either. But I do know the people who manufacture my dog food do and they add safe amounts. You just can't simply ignore the results that people like these have had. And some of the people that Susann just referenced there are again people with decades of experience, one in particular that has been breeding since the 1990's.
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Re: Dog food

Postby foghat » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:25 pm

Forgetting for a moment that variety is the spice of life, could one literally only use dog food? I'd think you'd want to add a bit of variety (greens, vegetables, etc) to keep things interesting, but is anything outside of the appropriate dog food actually required?

Not having a dog myself, at this point, I am not sure what is out there - are there particular brands and flavors that are recommended?
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Re: Dog food

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:00 am

Just a foot note : skinks are opportunistic feeders, so if the skink happens to be living in suburbia and people in the area have pet cats or dogs, skinks are known to raid the dog or cat food dishes if food is left there by the cat or dog , I've seen this kind of behaviour in bluetongues and other skinks (and dragons) personally.
The wild suburban skink will soon learn the feeding routine and will adapt accordingly. An "easy" source of protein , even if dangerous to access will be utilized by a perpertually hungry wild suburban based skink who has limited access to the food sources it might find if it lived in "the bush".


This doesn't mean the cat or dog food is a good food , but , a wild skink will take what it can get . Their country cousins don't have access to these foods so forage for food, take live insects (ants, spiders, grubs, grasshoppers, termites, earthworms, snails and slugs are the most common proteins found in the guts of wild skinks who live "in the bush or in rural areas).


The reasons for this practice being adopted has been lost in the mists of time and it's become part of "the culture" and few keepers think much about it.
One key reason why skink keepers/ breeders started using cat or dog foods as PART of their pet's diet many decades ago will be because of observations like sited above , and live insects , and lizard specific pellets, gels etc were NOT EASILY available , or had be caught from the wild or bred "inhouse" and observations note above when cat and dog foods were made available in cans and packets.
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dog food

Postby Susann » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:25 am

foghat wrote:Forgetting for a moment that variety is the spice of life, could one literally only use dog food?

There are people out there who have had skinks for decades and have never fed them anything other than dog food, with occasional additions of veggies, greens and/or fruits. I do believe that the ones I know of all supplement with at least reptile calcium w/D3.

The variety is not so much for the spice of life, but I believe is necessary to ensure, or at least lessen the chance that your skink gets too much or too little of something. If you always get beef, there may be some things your skink will eventually lack in the diet that is usually only present in, for example, turkey. I believe buying foods with different ingredients safeguards against that. I believe the same thing about different brands; how many times have there been recalls for certain brands just because they've changed a formula and ended up with issues, or it's become apparent after years that there turned out to be too little or too much of something that didn't show symptoms for years.
I believe that the safest way to feed your BTS is to try different things, different formulas, different flavors, different brands, different prices. The expensive stuff is not always the best or most nutritious. Try raw, try frozen/thawed, try dry, try rodents, try roaches, try cat food, etc.

Most of us feed wet canned food; I do know some stick with dry but I haven't heard reports on for what lengths of time we're talking about or if there have been issues from it.
I like to buy dry food now and then and chop it up to different degrees in a mixer in order to add some texture or "crunch" to the wet, "mushy" stuff. Also when you make a batch of veggies and greens and freeze it in ice cube trays, whether before or after adding the dog food, when you thaw it, it's sometimes very watery --having something dry to mix into it takes care of that problem.

Lots of ways to do it. :D
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Re: Dog food

Postby Susann » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:04 am

kingofnobbys wrote:One key reason why skink keepers/ breeders started using cat or dog foods will be because of observations like sited above and live insects, and lizard specific pellets, gels etc were NOT EASILY available, or had be caught from the wild or bred "inhouse"
So you're saying keepers saw wild skinks eating dog food out of bowls, and because there wasn't anything lizard specific EASILY available, keepers just started feeding dog food. Am I understanding your statement correctly?

kingofnobbys wrote:and it's become part of "the culture"
What is it that's become part of the culture? The practice of feeding dog and cat food?
I'm sorry, but I'm confused what it is you are referring to...

kingofnobbys wrote:The reasons for this practice being adopted has been lost in the mists of time
The reasons for which practice being adopted? Do you mean the reasons for skinks being known to raid the dog or cat food dishes? Or the reason for adopting the practice of feeding dog food has been lost...?

kingofnobbys wrote:This doesn't mean the cat or dog food is a good food , but , a wild skink will take what it can get . An "easy" source of protein , even if dangerous to access will be utilized by a perpertually hungry wild suburban based skink who has limited access to the food sources it might find if it lived in "the bush".
Their country cousins don't have access to these foods so forage for food, take live insects
It almost sounds like you are saying, wild skinks in populated areas are more perpetually hungry than their wild country cousins who have better access to food sources in "the bush", and therefore the wild suburban skink will have no choice but to dangerously raid dog bowls as a last resource, even though it's not a good food...
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