Dog food

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Susann
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Dog food

Postby Susann » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:55 pm

Let's do it; let's have the dog food discussion again. It's been a while. :wink:

First, please be aware we have an excellent BTS FOOD CHART here on our site. There is no need to go to various different sites to compile lists of what some say are okay to feed a blue tongue skink. This is THE most comprehensive list of food items for a BTS; it includes all kinds of info on each item and even tells you how often you can or should feed them.

Then, as is noted on our food chart, on this site we believe and advocate canned dog food to be an excellent staple to include in your skinks' diet. If your feelings differ from what we recommend here, that is fine; we welcome everyone and respect whatever beliefs or opinions you may have. But, because the leadership of this site believes dog food to be a good and healthy staple in a BTS diet, we will not keep overlooking statements like: "dog food is bad" or "never feed dog food" unless you include the reason for your opinion. Repeatedly making blanket statements against something we here advocate for makes for an increased work-load for those few we have here to oversee our site, as our #1 goal is to ensure that the info given here is as correct and easy to understand as possible.

I started this thread because of comments already made on a recent thread called BTS Diet.
I will add some of those comments here.
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Re: Dog food

Postby kingofnobbys » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:56 pm

I personally advise against including cat or dog food in a skink's diet except in dire emergencies.

If you want long life food that's easy to prepare , consider Repashi GrubPie (as a possible standby protein staple) , or Bluey Buffet and maybe Veggie Burger,
perhaps Wombaroo Reptile Mix or VetaFarm Lizard Pellets (will need to be moistened), or RepCal Adult Bearded Dragon Pellets as a standby (for adult BTs , best softened before use) , the Juvenile version will work as a standby for baby and juvenile BTs but again best mixed with wet salad or grated fruit/veg).
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Re: Dog food

Postby mb606587 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:56 pm

The care sheets on this forum are an excellent resource and I highly recommend them. I can guarantee you that the original administrators of this website have decades of experience and are some of the most knowledgeable in the world in regards to the care of BTS. Other care sheets you find on the internet, I cannot make that same guarantee. The species of BTS will dictate which care sheet you should utilize as the same care is not universal for every BTS. If you are unsure of what species you have, post some pictures and we can help you. Now onto what I feed. This is just what works for me so remember you have a lot of other options as well. Yours is also a juvenile so I would be offering this every other day for the next few months.

2x a week for my adults (Wednesdays and Sunday): 1 spoonful of high quality dog food (many different options you can use and search on this forum. Mine typically comes with mixed veggies already in it.) I also add a spoonful of diced yellow squash or cucumbers depending on the day, 5 or 6 green beans, and will add either shredded arugula or spring mix (depending on what I have available) and mix the lettuce into their dog food. Typically my BTS will devour squash/cucumbers and green beans but won't touch the lettuce if not hidden. For the few that will eat just vegetables alone, I will offer up the same amount of just squash and green beans on Fridays, sometimes with a piece of mango to entice them. I sprinkle Calcium with D3 supplement onto my skinks' food once per week.

I do not use feeder insects and never have because my wife would divorce me if I kept that many roaches and worms in the house. In my experience, they are not necessary but certain feeders are excellent sources of protein (Dubia roaches, earthworms), some not so much (crickets).
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Re: Dog food

Postby kingofnobbys » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:57 pm

Reasons why I don't offer cat or dog food to my pet skinks are as follows :
1) irrespective of how high the "quality" of even premium wet cat or dog foods are claimed to be , you have no idea what exactly is in the tin or package (for mega "sausages") and they are ALL full of taste enhancers and emulsifiers and bonding jells and preservatives , I am particularly not keen on feeding preservatives and emulsifiers and unknown taste enhancers to my pet skinks as these have not been properly tested for reptiles , even if "safe for cats and dogs".
2) wrong kinds of fats and proteins that the skinks have not evolved to eat.
3) do not promote natural feeding / hunting behaviours in the reptiles.
4) my reptile vet advised strongly against giving my water skinks and later my blue tongue skinks these foods, her experience was that she regularly saw pet skinks who had serious obesity issues , mouth problems, MBD and fatty liver decease who were fed cat and dog foods as their main or only source of protein , she suggested I stick with boiled lean chicken / turkey mince , live snails and live insects for my skinks' protein sources.
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Re: Dog food

Postby mb606587 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:59 pm

Can you say for sure that you know exactly what is in Repashy Grubpie which you recommended? Seems to me it appears to be a "gel" with similar preservatives. So I do know what's in my dog food just as I know what's in Repashy by reading the ingredients listed. Your claim that it has not been properly tested is false. It has been fed for decades by many top breeders (Joe Ball, Ty Parks, TC Houston among others). I have decades of experience using it. I don't know what more testing or proof you need to show that it is a safe alternate protein staple. You also claim skinks have not evolved to eat dog food. Have they evolved to eat boiled chicken and turkey? That is definitely also not a part of their natural diet. It does not promote natural feeding and hunting behaviors? Do pellets, Repashy, boiled chicken or turkey, all foods you recommended, promote that for them? I do not dispute that your vet regularly saw skinks in those conditions. But how can you be so sure that the diet directly led to those? Those are very common issues, regularly associated with poor husbandry and overfeeding. While the diet your vet recommended can be an excellent one, I've read snails are an amazing choice, I believe your opinion, which you are completely entitled to, is in the minority when it comes to most experts' view on the subject.

As far as hunting instincts go for this species, I do not buy it the way I do for other species. Evolution has not crafted these guys into exceptional hunters. In the wild, they are primarily foragers and what many have labeled "opportunistic feeders." Meaning they will eat berries, vegetation, carrion, and of course insects, whatever they can find. There is a reason worms and snails are their primary insects of choice. These slow moving insects are some of the only live prey that BTS can consistently hunt effectively. Because of this, evolution has enabled the BTS, much like the South American Tegus, another notable opportunistic omnivore who have a long history of being fed dog food in captivity, to effectively handle a wide range of food choices. Now not every species falls into this category. Many varanids have been fed canned dog food in captivity, usually to poor results. The difference is they are primarily carnivores and much more adept hunters. A diet consisting of live prey would be much more appropriate for this species as they do have a much stronger instinct to hunt and their bodies aren't as well equipped to handle other forms of food offerings. Bearded dragons would be another example. I think that's where some people get confused because, yes for most species of lizard, dog food is not suitable, whereas for some others, BTS included, there haven't been any known signs that it cannot be consumed safely.
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Re: Dog food

Postby Susann » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:12 pm

On the topic of dog food we generally run into the Grain vs. grain-free question before long, so I linked one of the threads in the FAQ about that.

We really do want to hear everyone's opinions here. Whether you are for dog food or against dog food. Just explain to us why you feel the way you feel.
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Re: Dog food

Postby Susann » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:00 pm

Why do we believe dog food is a good staple?

1) it is formulated for an omnivore. The meat protein vs. plant matter is often already good straight out of the can, depending on the brand and formula, but many of us still chop up extra veggies to mix in.

2) Dog food is fortified with the proper amount (for BTS) of vitamins and minerals. Takes the guesswork out for most of us (non-dietitians) as to how much of certain vitamins are already in the ingredients we've put in and how much of what still needs to be sprinkled on the meal.

3) Many breeders have predominately or exclusively fed their skinks dog food for DECADES without any dietary issues whatsoever. Richard, one of our mods, had a female Blotchie who passed away at age 31, who had healthy litters through age 29, fed nothing but dog food. <--That right there, and stories like that, is worth so much more to me, as proof that BTS do well and thrive on a diet with dog food as a staple, than any educated veterinarian saying dog food is bad for skinks. Or the argument that dog food isn't "natural" to skinks.

We are not saying that dog food as a staple is a must. We are not saying that feeding dog food is the only way to keep your skinks healthy. There are many ways of doing that. We ARE saying that dog food is good and safe.

We love to hear other opinions though. I ALWAYS love to hear well thought-out arguments and well supported opinions.
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Re: Dog food

Postby mb606587 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:03 pm

Susann wrote:3) Many breeders have predominately or exclusively fed their skinks dog food for DECADES without any dietary issues whatsoever. Richard, one of our mods, had a female Blotchie who passed away at age 31, who had healthy litters through age 29, fed nothing but dog food. <--That right there, and stories like that, is worth so much more to me, as proof that BTS do well and thrive on a diet with dog food as a staple, than any educated veterinarian saying dog food is bad for skinks. Or the argument that dog food isn't "natural" to skinks.


I agree completely with this statement. It is important to know that not every veterinarian is completely knowledgeable about reptile care. I have seen some doing quick research or making calls to others to have questions answered. It is my opinion that most vets' experiences with reptiles being fed dog food is with Savannah monitors. Savannah monitors are much more common in the US than BTS and cost on average around $30 so they tend to be a popular choice for many irresponsible owners (and some responsible owners) alike. It has been said for many years that Savannahs can be fed solely dog food, when in reality, they need a more insect based diet. I think a lot of vets end up frequently treating these monitor lizards for health issues related to this diet and assume that dog food on a whole must be unnatural and unhealthy for all reptiles. I have to admit, it does seem pretty unconventional. But as Susann stated, I value the experience and recommendations of long time keepers the highest and almost every one I have talked to feeds and recommends dog food for their BTS. I, myself, feed it to all of my Blue Tongue Skinks as their staple source of protein, with my oldest having been on the diet for 20 years, so I strongly recommend it.
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Re: Dog food

Postby Janella » Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:44 pm

I just wanted to say I agree with Susann and mb606587. I personally don't feel that dog food is bad to feed. I also know several long time BTS people who all feed it. I use it as well. I also feed a variety of other protein sources as well, such as lean ground turkey, chicken, quail, snails, eggs, and insects. I have used grub pie and blue buffet, but my guys don't like it as much. Both my skinks are healthy and doing well.
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Re: Dog food

Postby splashy07 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:05 am

Well, I was going to let this one slide as I was tiring of the anti-dog food rants. But here's my two cents.
First, I do not do anything because of the opinions or suggestions of others. I rely on FACT. I have been keeping reptiles for 40+ years and know many long time keepers and breeders. Now if you have a 25 year old skink that has been raised on dog food and is STILL PRODUCING, well that is FACT that you are doing something right. And I know of such an instance. My healthy, happy breeding skinks are a fact. The size of my babies has been praised again and again. Anyone can practice poor husbandry leading to maladies, and poor diet can be a contributor. For instance, I have seen skinks raised solely on repashy. The result is not good. Like eating jello every day.
Variety is the key, your skink can and will get bored with the same thing every day, just like you would. The only thing that would make me stop using dog food would be a call from Joe Ball telling me to. Because what he knows is fact, not opinion. If you are as prolific a breeder as he, I just may ponder your advice.
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Re: Dog food

Postby kayla990 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:22 am

Ooo fascinating subject - I'm leaning more towards kingofnobbys ideals on this:

In summary:
Pros:
- Relatively cheap
- Easy to find in supermarkets as part of groceries
- Variety of flavours to keep them interested

Cons
- Unknown sources of where the meat is from. I don't know about you guys, but I've never seen dog/cat food saying what 'quality' of meat it is (i.e. bio/organic vs battery/poor conditions).
- Following above: for all I know they put in the cheapest and worst cuts of meats, and there is more studies showing the importance of how the animals are treated. E.g. if they live in stressful conditions, this increases cortisol - and it's thought to go into fat cells long term. After consuming stressed animals, we're thought to have increased cortisol levels ourselves (which can affect hormones in our own body).
- Some companies may import meat from countries that have low regulations in regards to hormone treatments, which is thought to pass onto the next consumer (heck, think of us all gut loading insects.. it's fair to say the principle applies to us too).
- Often have preservatives (even the 'better' quality food seem to have some form of additives or bi-product that I don't agree with)

Personally I think if you're able to get hold of meat from a reputable source which is proven to be organic (as yep, companies have been shown to lie) then that will always beat commercial dog/cat food. If however - you know 100% that the dog/cat food is giving good cuts of meat, no hormones/stressful conditions, no 'bad' additives then I don't see an issue with that either.

My own method is to get organic meats and use it for our skink (and us). I slow cook big batches of it (with only herbs safe for skinks too, no additional salt etc) and freeze it into ice cubes. But I also own cat/dog food to use *only* occasionally for variety.

Agree what is being said about insects as a more ideal source (only if gut loaded and given additional calcium) as it provides enrichment and hunting behaviours. But - I don't keep insects as I only have two lizards (kept them before but got overrun with them breeding). But I think if provided a good varied diet with good supplements and other sources of enrichment, then it's not a problem to use trusted cat/dog/high quality meats instead.

If people use cheap versions of the commercial dog/cat (with no other food types) then I honestly think it will cause health problems long term.
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Re: Dog food

Postby splashy07 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:02 am

Does anyone truly know what is in 'human' food? If you did, you'd buy a farm and raise your own.
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Re: Dog food

Postby kayla990 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:21 am

Nope! Meant to add that too - it's a lot based on trust (and I don't trust many pet food companies, as they are regulated less compared to 'people' food). Agree the only way is to either go direct to the farm to establish a relationship/volunteer at one to see first hand the treatment of the animals.. or like you say buy a farm and do it all yourself. But.. not a very practical route for skink food :lol:
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Re: Dog food

Postby splashy07 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:40 am

Would if I could!! I wouldn't be able to slaughter the animals, though. But believe me, our own food is mystery meat.
My boss was formerly a butcher. I could tell horror stories all day. That's why I just go with what's proven to work for me and quite a few other successful keepers/breeders in my circles. And, as Rainman said, "That's all I have to say about that."
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Re: Dog food

Postby kayla990 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:56 am

Agree ^__^ don't think I could do the slaughter either! I know of some family members who raise animals themselves (so they know they had a good life) who then send them onto the slaughter house later.. but uff, also couldn't do that (would get attached far too easily!). That's pretty interesting your boss was a butcher - I can only begin to imagine the type of stories...

And makes perfect sense to me for keepers to do what you (and others) have proven to be successful :D And a bit of a random thing in case it's of interest to you - I've heard of a company based in USA who claims to have good quality/well treated animals for a good price (I think called Butcher Box). I only heard of it through a podcast which gave a discount code, but not available in EU. If you think it could be something for you, just send a PM and I'll forward it :) as like you say, our own food is mystery meat too!
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Re: Dog food

Postby mb606587 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:19 pm

Insect feeders have traditionally been an excellent nutritional source of protein. It is their main source of protein in the wild. If you are more comfortable sticking with insect feeders and you are providing a variety of other offerings, then there's no reason your skink won't live a long healthy life as well. The issue is most people aren't too fond of keeping insects available, so an alternate source of protein needs to be offered in its place if that is the case. Luckily, the BTS has shown to be able to adapt and thrive on many other more "unconventional" foods, which is pretty uncommon in the reptile world. It is this reason that I believe the popularity of the BTS is higher than its ever been. Now I'm going to pose this question. Many people would rather feed chicken, ground beef, turkey, or other "homebrewed" diets as opposed to canned dog food. Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking these choices because they have shown to work for many people over long periods of time, just as dog food has. But how do we know that cooked chicken, for example, is a healthy choice to feed our BTS? I mean BTS don't eat anything resembling chicken or turkey in their natural diet. Is it because we have observed over many generations of BTS that they can thrive eating these types of alternate protein, along with a balanced diet? Is this any different from the same observations that our skinks also thrive and live long lives on a predominately or even exclusive dog food diet, of course with other varied offerings to balance it out?
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Re: Dog food

Postby mb606587 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:47 pm

I would like to add that for the people that take the time to prepare their skink's meals with raw or cooked meats and vegetables, unless you are supplementing with multivitamin powders and/or calcium in some cases, your skink is very likely missing out on some of the vitamins and minerals that are already added into canned dog food by the manufacturers. The bone meal and many of the vitamins and minerals are excellent, and in some cases necessary for our skinks' health. And they are in safe amounts for our skinks.
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Re: Dog food

Postby kingofnobbys » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:58 pm

This is why I believe it's best to include LIVE insects ie snails, silkworms, gutloaded (disabled by crushing their heads and removing most their legs, so the adult BT can easily catch them , this is not necessary for baby and juvenile BTs who are faster moving) crickets, roaches and locusts which have been gutloaded and are dusted
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Re: Dog food

Postby mb606587 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:21 pm

Kingofnobbys, I think your chart has excellent food choices minus as you said the mice and I'd even say crickets (I hate crickets). I do believe the chart on this website is much more extensive but I can't dispute most of what yours recommends. However, do you feed your skinks as often as your chart indicates?
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Re: Dog food

Postby kingofnobbys » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:32 pm

Yes or less ….I give small daily meals to my adult BTs (and water skinks) .

ie one or two silkworms (I raise my own so always have silkworms for my dragons and skinks) + maybe 6 to 8 medium crickets (all my crickets are lightly calcium dusted and gutloaded with calcium rich greens) + fruit & salad is made available each day.

I also offer live commercially farmed very clean toxin free (fit for human consumption) snails as treats, eggs are a treat too.
I might offer a couple superworms as a treat once a week (on the floor in a 1.5L tub for the bluetongue to chase and catch) , my pair love the supers and make fast work of them.

Small meals each day is my policy for my adult skinks and dragons.

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