BTS Diet

[megamuff]

I’m honestly just so confused about their diet. It seems like everyone has their own opinion on what they should eat and most of the time the opinions are completely different from each other. I’m terrified of feeding mine wrong and causing him to get sick. What do you guys feed them? If you can give estimated percentages for protein, veggies, and fruit that’d be great. And what’s your opinion on bugs? Choji is 6 months old if that matters. I feed him high quality canned cat food and some giant meal worms and earthworms (tried hornworms and he didn’t seem to like them). Long, detailed answers are appreciated lol

[mb606587]

app.php/page/food-chart

Canned cat food is usually higher in fat. Is good for newborn and juvenile skinks but high quality dog food is said to be better for them in the long run. Super worms and earthworms are good feeder insects.

[Efferalgan]

A breeder telling his love of dog food: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-DA9oob16Q

Same breeder, more detailed diet explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_EUQcIsU6o

[kingofnobbys]

IMO : this is your best guide : https://www.completecritter.com/blue-tongue-skink.html (for adult BTs).
and this is about as good a guide to the fruits and veg to give that you can find : http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Nutritionframeset.html
and this for selecting protein sources (insects) : https://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/vi ... 4#p1807834

I would be very reluctant to include pinkie mice in the diet of a BTS , lean boiled chicken or turkey mince , or sliced or mashed hard boiled chicken eggs are a better choice. (Adult BTs also love a whole raw chicken egg - be warned - very messy eaters !)
I personally advise against including cat or dog food in a skink's diet except in dire emergencies.

If you want long life food that's easy to prepare , consider Repashi GrubPie (as a possible standby protein staple) , or Bluey Buffet and maybe Veggie Burger,
perhaps Wombaroo Reptile Mix http://www.wombaroo.com.au/reptile-prod ... supplement
or VetaFarm Lizard Pellets https://vetafarm.com.au/product/lizard-food/ (will need to be moistened)
or RepCal Adult Bearded Dragon Pellets as a standby (for adult BTs , best softened before use) , the Juvenile version will work as a standby for baby and juvenile BTs but again best mixed with wet salad or grated fruit/veg).

[mb606587]

Kingofnobbys, while I agree mostly with everything you posted, especially with the pinky mice (is okay once in a while but don't make it a staple. I've never once used), I am curious to hear your reasoning about why somebody should avoid feeding high quality dog food except in an emergency. I understand that's your opinion and I completely respect your decision not to feed it to your skinks, but the fact is that many people who have been keeping these guys for decades absolutely swear by it, and some go as far as saying its one of the best things you can feed your skink. And these are people who keep skinks thriving well over 25 years in most cases. The food chart on this site, which was created by some of the most experienced BTS keepers and breeders, advises that it should be offered frequently. TC Houston from Reptile Mountain is also an advocate and has posted a video on his Youtube channel explaining his reasoning and the benefits of a dog food diet. Now on to my own experiences, my oldest BTS, who just turned 20 years old a few months ago, has been primarily fed dog food with mixed greens her entire life, never with any ill effects, and it has been what I feed my other 6 BTS for many years.

[megamuff]

A breeder telling his love of dog food: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-DA9oob16Q

Same breeder, more detailed diet explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_EUQcIsU6o

I’ve watched those videos. He’s actually the breeder I got mine from. I just want to have more people’s personal opinions. From what I remember, he doesn’t feed many insects to his skinks. It seems like most other people include insects with every meal

[megamuff]

IMO : this is your best guide : https://www.completecritter.com/blue-tongue-skink.html (for adult BTs).
and this is about as good a guide to the fruits and veg to give that you can find : http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Nutritionframeset.html
and this for selecting protein sources (insects) : https://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/vi ... 4#p1807834

I would be very reluctant to include pinkie mice in the diet of a BTS , lean boiled chicken or turkey mince , or sliced or mashed hard boiled chicken eggs are a better choice. (Adult BTs also love a whole raw chicken egg - be warned - very messy eaters !)
I personally advise against including cat or dog food in a skink's diet except in dire emergencies.

If you want long life food that's easy to prepare , consider Repashi GrubPie (as a possible standby protein staple) , or Bluey Buffet and maybe Veggie Burger,
perhaps Wombaroo Reptile Mix http://www.wombaroo.com.au/reptile-prod ... supplement
or VetaFarm Lizard Pellets https://vetafarm.com.au/product/lizard-food/ (will need to be moistened)
or RepCal Adult Bearded Dragon Pellets as a standby (for adult BTs , best softened before use) , the Juvenile version will work as a standby for baby and juvenile BTs but again best mixed with wet salad or grated fruit/veg).

Thanks! I’ll check out those links in a bit. Basing things on what I’ve read, I still want super high quality cat/dog food to be his main protein source. But I want to add in more things to mix it up and give him more variation. The parts I get really confused about are mainly the veggies and insects

[megamuff]

Kingofnobbys, while I agree mostly with everything you posted, especially with the pinky mice (is okay once in a while but don't make it a staple. I've never once used), I am curious to hear your reasoning about why somebody should avoid feeding high quality dog food except in an emergency. I understand that's your opinion and I completely respect your decision not to feed it to your skinks, but the fact is that many people who have been keeping these guys for decades absolutely swear by it, and some go as far as saying its one of the best things you can feed your skink. And these are people who keep skinks thriving well over 25 years in most cases. The food chart on this site, which was created by some of the most experienced BTS keepers and breeders, advises that it should be offered frequently. TC Houston from Reptile Mountain is also an advocate and has posted a video on his Youtube channel explaining his reasoning and the benefits of a dog food diet. Now on to my own experiences, my oldest BTS, who just turned 20 years old a few months ago, has been primarily fed dog food with mixed greens her entire life, never with any ill effects, and it has been what I feed my other 6 BTS for many years.

I’m curious about why he feels this way too. I’ve only read things from a couple of people that have discouraged dog food. Would you mind going into more detail about what and how you feed your skinks (like how often and things like that too)? And how good is the caresheet on here?

[mb606587]

The care sheets on this forum are an excellent resource and I highly recommend them. I can guarantee you that the original administrators of this website have decades of experience and are some of the most knowledgeable in the world in regards to the care of BTS. Other care sheets you find on the internet, I cannot make that same guarantee. The species of BTS will dictate which care sheet you should utilize as the same care is not universal for every BTS. If you are unsure of what species you have, post some pictures and we can help you. Now onto what I feed. This is just what works for me so remember you have a lot of other options as well. Yours is also a juvenile so I would be offering this every other day for the next few months.

2x a week for my adults (Wednesdays and Sunday): 1 spoonful of high quality dog food (many different options you can use and search on this forum. Mine typically comes with mixed veggies already in it.) I also add a spoonful of diced yellow squash or cucumbers depending on the day, 5 or 6 green beans, and will add either shredded arugula or spring mix (depending on what I have available) and mix the lettuce into their dog food. Typically my BTS will devour squash/cucumbers and green beans but won't touch the lettuce if not hidden. For the few that will eat just vegetables alone, I will offer up the same amount of just squash and green beans on Fridays, sometimes with a piece of mango to entice them. I sprinkle Calcium with D3 supplement onto my skinks' food once per week.

I do not use feeder insects and never have because my wife would divorce me if I kept that many roaches and worms in the house. In my experience, they are not necessary but certain feeders are excellent sources of protein (Dubia roaches, earthworms), some not so much (crickets).

[mb606587]

And just to clarify, I use wet canned dog food, not dry food. I have seen people use dry food before, I've never tried it. Another excellent option you have that is readily available this time of year is canned pumpkin. I usually stock up and will offer a small spoonful of it with my veggies on Fridays. Most of my skinks go crazy for it. Just make sure you read the label and ensure that pumpkin is the only ingredient. Some come with sugars and cinnamon, which you'll want to avoid. For some picky skinks I have also used baby food in the past until they start eating fresh vegetables more consistently. Again read the ingredients, but most are all natural and you have endless options with fruits and vegetables. I primarily used the vegetable based ones with anything that had sweet potato being a favorite.

[megamuff]

And just to clarify, I use wet canned dog food, not dry food. I have seen people use dry food before, I've never tried it. Another excellent option you have that is readily available this time of year is canned pumpkin. I usually stock up and will offer a small spoonful of it with my veggies on Fridays. Most of my skinks go crazy for it. Just make sure you read the label and ensure that pumpkin is the only ingredient. Some come with sugars and cinnamon, which you'll want to avoid. For some picky skinks I have also used baby food in the past until they start eating fresh vegetables more consistently. Again read the ingredients, but most are all natural and you have endless options with fruits and vegetables. I primarily used the vegetable based ones with anything that had sweet potato being a favorite.

Thanks for all of the info! I do have another question, do you use a UV light on your skinks? I was wondering since you only give them calcium with d3 once a week. I don't use a bulb so I want to make sure that I give him enough of his supplement. For the past month, he's refused to eat and he won't come out from under the substrate at all on his own. Twice a week I've been pulling him out to check him and offer him food but he'll just bask for about an hour and then he's gone again. Nothing seems to be wrong and all of his temps are right. Do you have any guess as to why he's doing this and should I keep pulling him out every few days?

[mb606587]

I use uvb light for all but 3 of my skinks. If you're not using uvb, it wouldn't hurt to supplement a few times a week or with both meals as an adult. As to your skink not coming out, I'm assuming you have a Northern based off your avatar and that you bought it from TC Houston. Northerns typically start a process called brumation in November. You can research it some but when the weather starts to cool, they essentially hibernate. They start refusing food and remain burrowed for extended periods of time. It can last several weeks to several months. There's really no need to pull him out, you can rub his back every so often, he'll probably huff at you and then leave him be. You can cut back on offering food to once weekly until he's eating but keep water accessible.

[kingofnobbys]

Reasons why I don't offer cat or dog food to my pet skinks are as follows :
1) irrespective of how high the "quality" of even premium wet cat or dog foods are claimed to be , you have no idea what exactly is in the tin or package (for mega "sausages") and they are ALL full of taste enhancers and emulsifiers and bonding jells and preservatives , I am particularly not keen on feeding preservatives and emulsifiers and unknown taste enhancers to my pet skinks as these have not been properly tested for reptiles , even if "safe for cats and dogs".
2) wrong kinds of fats and proteins that the skinks have not evolved to eat.
3) do not promote natural feeding / hunting behaviours in the reptiles.
4) my reptile vet advised strongly against giving my water skinks and later my blue tongue skinks these foods, her experience was that she regularly saw pet skinks who had serious obesity issues , mouth problems, MBD and fatty liver decease who were fed cat and dog foods as their main or only source of protein , she suggested I stick with boiled lean chicken / turkey mince , live snails and live insects for my skinks' protein sources.

[mb606587]

Can you say for sure that you know exactly what is in Repashy Grubpie which you recommended? Seems to me it appears to be a "gel" with similar preservatives. So I do know what's in my dog food just as I know what's in Repashy by reading the ingredients listed. Your claim that it has not been properly tested is false. It has been fed for decades by many top breeders (Joe Ball, Ty Parks, TC Houston among others). I have decades of experience using it. I don't know what more testing or proof you need to show that it is a safe alternate protein staple. You also claim skinks have not evolved to eat dog food. Have they evolved to eat boiled chicken and turkey? That is definitely also not a part of their natural diet. It does not promote natural feeding and hunting behaviors? Do pellets, Repashy, boiled chicken or turkey, all foods you recommended, promote that for them? I do not dispute that your vet regularly saw skinks in those conditions. But how can you be so sure that the diet directly led to those? Those are very common issues, regularly associated with poor husbandry and overfeeding. While the diet your vet recommended can be an excellent one, I've read snails are an amazing choice, I believe your opinion, which you are completely entitled to, is in the minority when it comes to most experts' view on the subject.

[mb606587]

As far as hunting instincts go for this species, I do not buy it the way I do for other species. Evolution has not crafted these guys into exceptional hunters. In the wild, they are primarily foragers and what many have labeled "opportunistic feeders." Meaning they will eat berries, vegetation, carrion, and of course insects, whatever they can find. There is a reason worms and snails are their primary insects of choice. These slow moving insects are some of the only live prey that BTS can consistently hunt effectively. Because of this, evolution has enabled the BTS, much like the South American Tegus, another notable opportunistic omnivore who have a long history of being fed dog food in captivity, to effectively handle a wide range of food choices. Now not every species falls into this category. Many varanids have been fed canned dog food in captivity, usually to poor results. The difference is they are primarily carnivores and much more adept hunters. A diet consisting of live prey would be much more appropriate for this species as they do have a much stronger instinct to hunt and their bodies aren't as well equipped to handle other forms of food offerings. Bearded dragons would be another example. I think that's where some people get confused because, yes for most species of lizard, dog food is not suitable, whereas for some others, BTS included, there haven't been any known signs that it cannot be consumed safely.

[megamuff]

I use uvb light for all but 3 of my skinks. If you're not using uvb, it wouldn't hurt to supplement a few times a week or with both meals as an adult. As to your skink not coming out, I'm assuming you have a Northern based off your avatar and that you bought it from TC Houston. Northerns typically start a process called brumation in November. You can research it some but when the weather starts to cool, they essentially hibernate. They start refusing food and remain burrowed for extended periods of time. It can last several weeks to several months. There's really no need to pull him out, you can rub his back every so often, he'll probably huff at you and then leave him be. You can cut back on offering food to once weekly until he's eating but keep water accessible.

Oh okay, yeah he’s a Northern. I didn’t realize that he would start brumation on his own. I thought that I had to lower the temperatures for him to start. I’ve been reading about brumation since you said that and I’m not sure what to do with his lights. Do I have to lower the temperatures? There were some posts saying that baby blueys didn’t make it through their first brumation, he’s 6 months old so should I worry about him?

[mb606587]

No the changing of ambient temperatures at night probably triggered it. If you're not using a ceramic heat emitter or some other form of heat at night, the ambient temperatures would surely drop noticeably by now. I have never heard anything about it being dangerous for juvenile BTS to brumate. If he's still coming out to bask periodically, I would keep the heat as is, otherwise heat and lighting really isn't necessary during this time, although I don't think its harmful to leave them as you have it either. TC Houston, whom you bought your skink from, would be an excellent person to ask and I know from experience that he is more than happy to answer questions. I would trust the information he tells you much more than what you might find on the internet. Lot of false information out there. Here is a good thread about brumation from a very knowledgeable source.

viewtopic.php?t=20337#p396147

[megamuff]

No the changing of ambient temperatures at night probably triggered it. If you're not using a ceramic heat emitter or some other form of heat at night, the ambient temperatures would surely drop noticeably by now. I have never heard anything about it being dangerous for juvenile BTS to brumate. If he's still coming out to bask periodically, I would keep the heat as is, otherwise heat and lighting really isn't necessary during this time, although I don't think its harmful to leave them as you have it either. TC Houston, whom you bought your skink from, would be an excellent person to ask and I know from experience that he is more than happy to answer questions. I would trust the information he tells you much more than what you might find on the internet. Lot of false information out there. Here is a good thread about brumation from a very knowledgeable source.

viewtopic.php?t=20337#p396147

Okay thanks! I used to ask him all of my questions but I’ve had to send him a lot of messages so I didn’t want to bug him too much more than I already have

[kingofnobbys]

Can you say for sure that you know exactly what is in Repashy Grubpie which you recommended? Seems to me it appears to be a "gel" with similar preservatives. So I do know what's in my dog food just as I know what's in Repashy by reading the ingredients listed. Your claim that it has not been properly tested is false. It has been fed for decades by many top breeders (Joe Ball, Ty Parks, TC Houston among others). I have decades of experience using it. I don't know what more testing or proof you need to show that it is a safe alternate protein staple. You also claim skinks have not evolved to eat dog food. Have they evolved to eat boiled chicken and turkey? That is definitely also not a part of their natural diet. It does not promote natural feeding and hunting behaviors? Do pellets, Repashy, boiled chicken or turkey, all foods you recommended, promote that for them? I do not dispute that your vet regularly saw skinks in those conditions. But how can you be so sure that the diet directly led to those? Those are very common issues, regularly associated with poor husbandry and overfeeding. While the diet your vet recommended can be an excellent one, I've read snails are an amazing choice, I believe your opinion, which you are completely entitled to, is in the minority when it comes to most experts' view on the subject.

Thing is GrupPie and Bluey BUffet are designed for lizards , as is Woobaroo Wombaroo Reptile Supplement and VetaFarm lizard food (pellets) and RepCal bearded dragon food (pellets) . Can't say the same for dog and cat food.

There are some "so called" commercial lizard foods I would never suggest.

[kingofnobbys]

As far as hunting instincts go for this species, I do not buy it the way I do for other species. Evolution has not crafted these guys into exceptional hunters. In the wild, they are primarily foragers and what many have labeled "opportunistic feeders." Meaning they will eat berries, vegetation, carrion, and of course insects, whatever they can find. There is a reason worms and snails are their primary insects of choice. These slow moving insects are some of the only live prey that BTS can consistently hunt effectively. Because of this, evolution has enabled the BTS, much like the South American Tegus, another notable opportunistic omnivore who have a long history of being fed dog food in captivity, to effectively handle a wide range of food choices. Now not every species falls into this category. Many varanids have been fed canned dog food in captivity, usually to poor results. The difference is they are primarily carnivores and much more adept hunters. A diet consisting of live prey would be much more appropriate for this species as they do have a much stronger instinct to hunt and their bodies aren't as well equipped to handle other forms of food offerings. Bearded dragons would be another example. I think that's where some people get confused because, yes for most species of lizard, dog food is not suitable, whereas for some others, BTS included, there haven't been any known signs that it cannot be consumed safely.

I have a distinct advantage over nearly everyone here (on this board) , this is I live in the natural range of bluetongue skinks , and can easily and often have had the opportunity to observe the behavior of wild bluetongues and to see what they are eating (and catching).
All I have to do at the moment is to sit quietly on my back patio and wait and my resident wild eastern BT will eventually come out and start looking for snails and slugs , and scratching about in the grass and garden bed for spiders, earthworms and other insects , she only occasionally nibbles on some clover or dandelion or herbs , but seems to love the stalks of the mushrooms / toadstools that appear after rain.
She'll patiently stake out an ant nest and pick off sugar ants as they come out.