Discussion on Hybridization

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Discussion on Hybridization

Postby jdheff1982 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:20 pm

Susann wrote:I admire and appreciate your attitude, wish more had that maturity/patience.

We've seen so many hybrids, integrades, "mutts" popping up in Europe lately, which is why I think the best way to make a name for yourself in the future over there is by being one of the few that are concerned and serious about keeping species/subspecies clean.
In Indonesia it seems a BTS is more valuable among breeders if it's an integrade, which is why I tend to be suspicious of "farmed" imports coming in, and why I think it's more important for breeders everywhere to make an effort to keep the lines as clean as possible.
Not everyone shares my opinion about that though. To each their own I guess, I just happen to feel pretty strongly about it. :wink:


I'm not against mixed breeds. Sometimes mixing breeds can be more beneficial than pure breeds. For example, certain pure breeds of dogs and cats suffer from terrible ailments; however, if bred with a different breed of cat/dog, sometime the off-spring nullify those ailments which makes them a better animal overall.

The only problem I have with mixing breeds is inbreeding. Many breeders do this to single out a certain desired gene. Corn snakes and Ball Pythons are prime examples. They are more commonly bred to give appealing colors and patterns over just being a good entry-level reptile for a beginner. Instead, breeders can charge hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars over a "rare" color/pattern combination. Anyways, JMO.
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Re: So is my new addition a Merauke ?

Postby jdheff1982 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:39 pm

I don't understand how some can talk about keeping lines pure when we are not pure blooded. We are all mutts of some sort. I find it distasteful to deny an animal the opportunity to breed when there is nothing wrong with it. Denying any animal or person this opportunity is the same as saying their existence is meaningless.
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Re: So is my new addition a Merauke ?

Postby Roarschak11 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:57 pm

jdheff1982 wrote:I don't understand how some can talk about keeping lines pure when we are not pure blooded. We are all mutts of some sort. I find it distasteful to deny an animal the opportunity to breed when there is nothing wrong with it. Denying any animal or person this opportunity is the same as saying their existence is meaningless.


Are you a vegan?
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Re: So is my new addition a Merauke ?

Postby Fatal_S » Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:01 am

At the rate we're going, it won't be long now until there will be no more wild animals. Humans are destroying the planet at an astounding rate. Right now, you could still go to Australia and see not only each different subspecies of blue tongue, but an amazing array of beautiful locales within that subspecies. You can see Queensland or NSW Easterns, Kimberly or Darwin Northerns, goldfield or coastal rugosa Shinglebacks.

Every place in the world gives us a new treasure trove of unique animals. But every place in the world we destroy eliminates those unique animals. If no one's bothered keeping them, and trying to keep them pure, that animal type is gone. All the evolution and natural selection that occurred to give us that specific look, those specific survival functions, is wiped out. That animal will never truly exist again.

So either we completely stop buggering up their natural habitats (not going to happen, humans can not stop changing, manipulating, and mucking up the world around them), or we do as much as we can to preserve the animals on this planet in a close to their natural state as we humanly can. Because I don't know about you, but I'm hoping that a few generations from now people still get to experience the amazing array of blue tongues we've found around the world.
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Re: So is my new addition a Merauke ?

Postby jdheff1982 » Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:40 am

Fatal_S wrote:At the rate we're going, it won't be long now until there will be no more wild animals. Humans are destroying the planet at an astounding rate. Right now, you could still go to Australia and see not only each different subspecies of blue tongue, but an amazing array of beautiful locales within that subspecies. You can see Queensland or NSW Easterns, Kimberly or Darwin Northerns, Goldfield or Coastal Rugosa Shinglebacks.

Every place in the world gives us a new treasure trove of unique animals. But every place in the world we destroy eliminates those unique animals. If no one's bothered keeping them, and trying to keep them pure, that animal type is gone. All the evolution and natural selection that occurred to give us that specific look, those specific survival functions, is wiped out. That animal will never truly exist again.

So either we completely stop buggering up their natural habitats (not going to happen, humans can not stop changing, manipulating, and mucking up the world around them), or we do as much as we can to preserve the animals on this planet in a close to their natural state as we humanly can. Because I don't know about you, but I'm hoping that a few generations from now people still get to experience the amazing array of blue tongues we've found around the world.


How can we stop this if it occurs naturally ? And why only the blue-tongues? Don't the other animals of this world deserve a chance, too? I do understand keeping animals pure to retain their originals; however, if nature will's the animals to breed outside their circle, there is nothing we can do about it. But that's not my point here. Someone has pointed out that breeding hybrids is a meaningless project; however, what if the breeding produces favorable traits? Wouldn't we want that? No matter what they look like on the outside, they will always be the blue-tongue skink on the inside. That goes for people, too. All the different peoples of the Earth have cross-bred with one another; but that doesn't change the fact we are still very much human on the inside. I'm a mixture of Irish, Spanish, English, Hebrew, and possible others; yet, I'm still considered acceptable. Should I just stop the gene train here and not consider fornication because I'm a hybrid? Some of you might say "yes" after reading this, lol.

And no, I'm not a vegan. I am very much an omnivore. Vegan lifestyle is not healthy long term. There are proteins which are provided by animals our body's need that plants cannot compensate for. Additionally, vegans generally have to take a ton of supplements to fill in the gaps the herbivore diet cannot fill. Best to stay omnivore. Not certain how my eating habits relate to this thread... :shrugs:
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Re: So is my new addition a Merauke ?

Postby Fatal_S » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:21 am

Every species deserves to be protected as much as we can. I happen to work with blue tongues, so I use them as my example. It works well on a blue tongue forum.

We can not stop it from occurring completely, nor should we. We should (but won't) leave nature to do as it will. It's not a matter of hybrids being "bad". It's a matter of trying to preserve as much variety and natural traits in our captive populations as we can, and hybrids making that so much more difficult. People who care about trying to keep purity in our animals don't dislike hybrid animals, we simply dislike the increased chance of messing up the lines we've tried so hard to maintain.

A skink looks mostly merauke-like. Bred to another merauke, it might produce some babies that appear to be normal meraukes. Those babies go out into the general population as meraukes. A person trying to breed pure lines ends up with one of those babies, breeds with their other animals, and randomly in the litter some of the babies appear to have IJ traits. Not only is the parent animal now realized to be a hybrid, but there's a dozen more hybrid babies going out into the general population.

Even with wild caught animals, or animals from supposedly pure lines, there's a decent chance somewhere along the line there's been a hybrid. The ideal of "pure" bloodlines is exactly that, and ideal. But it's something most of us are trying to work towards, and having so many hybrids around makes it harder. We still do our best, since that's all we can reasonably do.

Since you seem to want to use a human example:
There are still tribes of native peoples in the world who are untouched by modern society. They live the way they have lived for centuries. Wouldn't it be good to go out, collect these people, and integrate them into our society?
It would be good for them - they have a very limited gene pool right now. I would be good for us - new genes to add to our own gene pool. If all people are pretty much the same, and all we care about is breeding to "produce favourable traits", it seems an ideal solution. Obviously though, we care about a lot more than just breeding for human traits.

The entire use of any human example is flawed though. Humans have the ability to remember their background. I know I'm 1/2 Scottish, 1/4 Irish, 1/8 Swedish, and 1/8 English. If that matters to me, or to my future mate, or my future children, I have or can probably find the knowledge. It's not hard to connect with your history. With reptiles, it's not so easy. Someone can produce any number of merauke-looking skinks, and those skinks can't tell you that they're different. It's all a best-guess.

Also, I don't see where anyone has said breeding hybrids is meaningless. It's simply not helpful for those of us who's ideal is keeping lines as pure as possible, and it can be hurtful for people who purchase the hybrids later if they care about pure bloodlines. I do take some issue with you equating breeding with a meaningful existence; maybe if all you care about is passing on your genes, but people and animals can live very meaningful lives without needing to pop out offspring. I'd hate to go around telling infertile people that their lives are meaningless.

I also don't understand why the topic of veganism would come up here. What?
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So is my new addition a Merauke ?

Postby timisimaginary » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:02 am

jdheff1982 wrote:How can we stop this if it occurs naturally ? And why only the blue-tongues? Don't the other animals of this world deserve a chance, too? I do understand keeping animals pure to retain their originals; however, if nature will's the animals to breed outside their circle, there is nothing we can do about it. But that's not my point here. Someone has pointed out that breeding hybrids is a meaningless project; however, what if the breeding produces favorable traits? Wouldn't we want that? No matter what they look like on the outside, they will always be the blue-tongue skink on the inside. That goes for people, too. All the different peoples of the Earth have cross-bred with one another; but that doesn't change the fact we are still very much human on the inside. I'm a mixture of Irish, Spanish, English, Hebrew, and possible others; yet, I'm still considered acceptable. Should I just stop the gene train here and not consider fornication because I'm a hybrid? Some of you might say "yes" after reading this, lol.


i think you're comparison to human breeding is fundamentally flawed. we're not talking about interbreeding different "races" or "ethnicities" of skinks. we're talking about interbreeding different species. regardless of race, ethnicity, hair color, skin color, height, or whatever different physical traits different people may have, we all belong to the same species, Home sapiens. and last i checked, it was illegal for a Homo sapiens to breed (or attempt to breed) with a non-Homo sapiens.

i know there is some debate about which types of skinks should be considered their own species or subspecies, but until that gets sorted out definitively by taxonomists, we should err on the side of maintaining purity at the species level. it's not the same as interbreeding different breeds of dogs, or different morphs of ball pythons. a poodle and a labrador retriever may look and behave in very different ways, but they are still the same species. every different morph of ball python is still a Python regius. those who choose to maintain the "purity" of a breed or morph by selective breeding for that breed or morph, with all the attendant advantages and disadvantages that entails, are engaging in an entirely different practice, a more extreme selective breeding that really has nothing in common with maintaining species purity; it's more akin to the old royal practice of maintaing pure royal bloodlines. when different species interbreed, there are occasional "successes" such as mules, but more often it leads to animals that are weaker, less robust than pure-species individuals, and that may often be sterile. even most mules, which are generally healthy and useful (at least to us), are infertile. interspecies breeding does not typically lead to the kind of advantages that you are attributing to intraspecies breeding of animals of the same species that exhibit different physical traits. there's a big difference between maintaing the robustness of a species gene pool by breeding different hereditary lines, vs. polluting the gene pool with genes from a different species.

as for other species of animals, i also collect tarantulas, and i can tell you the idea of hybridization in tarantulas is a BIG NO-NO. there are a lot of species in the tarantula world that have been contaminated by hybridization and weakened as a result. most T's will not breed with a different species, but in the rare cases where it does occur, it creates huge problems in identifying and breeding those species. it's very possible for certain species to die out and go extinct as a result of weakening those species genetics through hybridization. on a larger scale, the zoological community as a whole strives to maintain genetic diversity and purity by avoiding both inbreeding and interbreeding/hybridization. it's standard procedure to keep separate species separate to prevent interbreeding. that's the reason, for example, that many zoos have banned the breeding of Ligers (lion/tiger hybrids).

i have to say, it's really surprising to me to see hybridization in skinks taken so lightly, when it's generally considered so negatively in other areas of herpetology, at least among the ones i've experienced. maybe it's because there is more natural hybridization in the wild skink population, or the increased probability of producing fertile hybrids, i don't know. yes, hybridization takes place naturally, including among some skink species. but we are not in a natural situation when we breed animals. hybridization is part of the natural process of evolution, but that's a long-term process that involves a lot of mistakes and unhealthy animals along the way. it takes a lot of hybridization attempts over a VERY long time to produce a new species (along with an ecosystem that favors the new "hybrid" species and that allows that new species to become isolated to prevent further hybridization and develop independently into a true species). that's not something we humans are really capable of replicating. human-bred hybrids are destined only to either die out naturally or to go back into the gene pool and further dilute it for the actual true species that those hybrids were developed from.
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Re: So is my new addition a Merauke ?

Postby Roarschak11 » Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:51 am

This post is getting a little de-railed...
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Re: So is my new addition a Merauke ?

Postby DianaBlueTongue » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:03 am

Yeah, maybe starting a new post to discuss this would be a good idea
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Re: So is my new addition a Merauke ?

Postby Richard.C » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:39 am

Come on guys,op asked if we think this bluey was a merauke,if you want you want to start talking about the merits of hybridising or not perhaps starting a thread on that topic is a better idea than flooding posts on other topics eith it
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Re: So is my new addition a Merauke ?

Postby Fatal_S » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:24 pm

Ok, this topic has been split from the topic regarding a single merauke (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=25973). This is the topic to use for discussing hybridization now. Keep it civil please.
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Re: Discussion on Hybridization

Postby Richard.C » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:06 pm

When hybrid debates pop up,and people are all gooey and think but there still a bluey and hybrids can be beneficial ect i always think of jag carpet pythons

Where they are loved by many for there looks but the middle section of the process is often ignored,the jag sibs that most cull,and not in a very savoury fassion at times,the high percentage of fuggly ones in a litter,people are on a quest to design an oddball pretty animal that different,think of all the pretty jag carpets out there,there a tiny percentage of there litter,so why isnt the market flooded with jag sibs,the dull fuggly ones of there litters,if theres that many pretty ones out there ,there should be triple the amount of fuggly ones,bit there isnt

They cull them in there quest for a few pretty ones,i wont even mention the issues jags have with developing neuro issues

Now back on topic,what benefit is it creating hybrids which the majority of folk prefer to avoid???

Theres enough variety i n a given species to try and line breed for tons of different traits,and keep it pure

People creating hybrids on purpose to me are just people following the craze of trying to create an oddball,and getting there in the shortest time possible

Its not about the animals well being,its about a keepers ego,or just down right laziness in not aquiring animals of the same species to breed
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Re: Discussion on Hybridization

Postby BlueTonguesOfSA » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:24 pm

Just a quick note, in my opinion, producing hybrids practically resets all the genes that those two parents' lineage had bred them to be as perfect for their environment as possible. Generations upon generations slightly altering themselves to better suit their environment.

Now, you hybridize and it gets reset, you might have some that have better traits, but more than likely you'll have genes that don't necessarily improve upon their resiliency. It's not until after many generations of the most adept-to-their-environment animals breeding do you start to get a shift in the positive traits. Dog breeds, as in the OP's example, weren't bred in one generation, but worked with for multiple generations. We can produce a desirable, hardy, resilient, proven animal more often by sticking within the lines than we can if we hybridized.

I've chosen to omit the fact that the animals we're breeding stateside in a totally different environment than where they originate, thereby causing some differences to the genes.
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Re: Discussion on Hybridization

Postby Susann » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:54 pm

I agree with Richard 100% (no surprise eh?).
If you are going to breed then do it right. We are so not to the point with pure Northerns and the three gigas subspecies that we are seeing large numbers of animals being born with health issues from being overbred. I don't think at this point that the possible health benefits (questionable to begin with) are any excuse to muddy the market with hybrids and integrades.

Breeding BTS of different species/subspecies together is, in my opinion, absolutely the cheap, quick, and lazy way of getting animals with different, (sometimes) unusual looks. And the result ends up being that 95+% of the animals produced are average looking mutts at best that most people, who have done any amount of research, would stay clear of.

Am I saying that hybrids and integrades can't be valued, beautiful animals? Absolutely not. But I am voicing my own "opinion" that I do not respect someone who knowingly produces hybrid offspring, because I do not see the value in it, and I believe it ends up hurting the beautifully different species and subspecies of BTS available to us.
In most cases. Are there exceptions that, in my mind, may warrant the practice? Yes. But I would venture that 99+% of the hybrids and intergrades produced in the US (and most other places) are produced because the owner doesn't want to spend the time and the money getting the right animals together. They just want the experience of breeding with whatever animals of opposite sexes they happen to have on hand, or they want to go the cheap, quick, and lazy route of hopefully producing an unusual BTS.

If you are interested in producing a BTS with a certain, unusual color or pattern, then be responsible about it, which in my opinion means: spend the time and money finding animals within the same species/subspecies that display some degree of what you are looking to produce, and then, one year at a time, start putting those animals together and eventually line breed the offspring with the right characteristics.
This is, in most cases, extremely time consuming (takes many years) and very expensive. The Sunset and T+ Caramel Northerns didn't happen in a couple generations, nor by fluke.
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Re: Discussion on Hybridization

Postby Dood » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:54 am

I agree that there are enough "purebred" BTS in North America that breeding hybrids or intergrades is not necessary but finding those guaranteed purebreds can be riduculously expensive if they have to be shipped (there really arent too many bluey breeders in Canada) or nearly impossible especially when pet store "experts" are labelling everything a "northern" to up the price.

And then there are the big breeders who are producing or importing exciting BTS morphs and basically encouraging hybrids in order to spread the colour gene around :(

But I would venture that 99+% of the hybrids and intergrades produced in the US (and most other places) are produced because the owner doesn't want to spend the time and the money getting the right animals together.
I actually think the vast majority are bred in ignorance that there are separate species or sub-species of Tiliqua in the world, very few people are unaware that there is a "hybrid debate" going on and they label any lizard with a blue tongue as a Blue Tongue Skink and fair game for breeding.

Its not like there is a kennel club that keeps track of BTS bloodlines and I think a LOT of supposed purebreds are identified on forums like this but actually come from a long line of hybrids and visually they happen to take after one of the species so thats what they are called.

IMHO the damage is done and if it looks like northern then breed it to a northern, then cull or pet out or label "non conforming" babies as hybrids, keep breeding the northern looking ones and eventually the northern traits will win out.
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Re: Discussion on Hybridization

Postby timisimaginary » Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:40 am

Dood wrote:IMHO the damage is done and if it looks like northern then breed it to a northern, then cull or pet out or label "non conforming" babies as hybrids, keep breeding the northern looking ones and eventually the northern traits will win out.


unfortunately it doesn't really work out that way, even a hybrid that displays primarily the traits of one species is still carrying the genes of both, and is just as capable of producing offspring that are obviously hybrid in its characteristics. that's why hybridization is so dangerous, because once you have a hybrid, there really is no way to go back.

there are pure lines, even if they're fewer and further between then we'd like. those lines are enough to expand upon and maintain the purity of the species. zoos have managed to breed and keep various animal species going with far fewer specimens than what is available in the BTS pet breeding community.
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Re: Discussion on Hybridization

Postby Fatal_S » Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:52 am

If you care about pure lines, they're not that hard to obtain, especially if you're anywhere in North America, Asia, or Europe (note: some countries may have specific import laws, I don't know all the European/Asian country rules). Anyone who complains about the price to get a blue tongue (under $500 to get most species, including shipping, from a pure line) needs to look at the prices people pay for other animals. Blue tongues are pretty reasonably priced.

I do agree that the morph market is going to absolute screw over anyone trying to keep pure lines. Many of the current morphs are already hybrids, and those that aren't will soon be bred into other species so you'll never know what the background is on any morph skink :( Thinking about the morphs for blue tongues just makes me sad now.
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Re: Discussion on Hybridization

Postby Dood » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:03 pm

unfortunately it doesn't really work out that way,
yes, it does. Eventually those "non conforming" genes are lost IF you dont breed back to a visually dissimilar animal and only breed like to like. This is how every breed, species, race and locality in the world was created.

that's why hybridization is so dangerous, because once you have a hybrid, there really is no way to go back.
yeah, you won't ever have a 100% purebred but isn't 99% or 95% or 90% good enough?

Who's to say that the "purebred" Northern skink wasnt a wild caught integrate from before the export ban ?

What about the wild caughts currently being imported ? Who's to say they arent hybrids since it is well known they crossbreed in nature and in the backyard enclosures of locals :)

How far shall we take this idea of "purity" ? Will you decide not cross "Kimberly" northerns to other localities? I bet some Aussies would be outraged if you did.
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Re: Discussion on Hybridization

Postby Richard.C » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:53 pm

already happend heaps in australia,kimberleys over over northern forms,not to mention folk are even using northerns over alb easterns to apparently strenghen the alb line,but how putting an eastern over a northern strengthens the alb eastern line is beyond me,as anything produced is no longer of that line

sounds like more of a case of producing more albinos that look different to than creating a stonger line,short term gain thing again rather than trying to strengthen a line the long way,with in its own subspecies

people also see albino and dont really give a rats fat clacker what it is,more after the trait than the species

dood if u look at my kimberley northern breeding thread you will see one of my males is in fact a darwin/kunnanurra male and has covered 2 kunnanurra females this season,locales of a species is a tad different to crossing of species or even subspecies

even in australia now theres a 50/50 trend it appears towards for and against hybridising,jag carpets seem to have knocked alot of folk off from sitting on the fence these days
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Re: Discussion on Hybridization

Postby Carnivale » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:30 am

My only opinion is that so long as the offspring produced are healthy and can live a quality life, that's really what I care about most.

I understand why it may frustrate some breeders because they want to keep their lines pure, but for the general consumer/pet owner, I think looks and health are usually the big priorities. Obviously, if an animal is produced who is unhealthy and won't live long, you're going to get angry owners who invest not just money, but love and care into their animals. It wouldn't pay off for anyone to produce unhealthy animals.

So I'm not so much for or against hybridization, I'm only concerned with whether or not any offspring can look forward to healthy, happy lives, and for breeders to be responsible and mindful of what they do.
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