Improving Air Circulation?

[jclaiborne]

I have my two IJ blueys in Vision cages (3x2x2) with their heat lamps wired inside. The only vents on these are screens in the back of the cage that make a shelf for the UVBs. During the winter everything was fine, but now that it is starting to heat up in SoCal the room that I keep all my reptiles in is getting hot and the air is stagnant. I have been turing on my ceiling fan and letting that run, but since the Vision cages are fully enclosed it isn't helping much, it is however cooling down my snake cages and Dubia colony, which I really don't want. We took our son to the SD Zoo over the weekend and we went through their reptile exibit, I started looking at the enclosures and noticed every single one had a tiny fan hooked up to it, it looked like one you would find on a computer. Has anyone done this for their blueys? Do you see any pros and cons to running fans through the cages? I figured I could orient the fans to either push outside air in or pull air from the cage out. I was initially going to add some side vents, but I worry about heat loss when winter comes around again.

[saisaac]

I personally haven't had the need for this in the past, but I have read in a number of different places that people use computer fans to re-circulate air in their otherwise relatively stagnant enclosures. If I am recalling correctly, they are especially popular with those creating naturalistic living terrariums with live plants, water elements, etc. I see no reason why that would not work. You could even use two fans, one pulling fresh air in and one pulling air out (one on each end of the enclosure).

[donkeybuff]

The one concern that I have is that the bluey will somehow injure itself on the fan. There needs to be some sort of guard so that the bluey (including its tongue) can't get to the blades, and the fan should ideally be placed where it is unreachable.

[jclaiborne]

Thanks for the reply. I have been looking into fans most of the day and have narrowed it down to a few. Now I am just trying to decide if I should have it on the back screen just pushing or pulling air in the tank or actually wire it in the tank, if I wire it in the tank I think there may not be as much heat loss. That being said I worry about it being in the tank and affecting humidity. I think I am going to have to do some trial and error to get it dialed in correctly. I may even need to run it in short bursts vs constantly running.

[jclaiborne]

The one concern that I have is that the bluey will somehow injure itself on the fan. There needs to be some sort of guard so that the bluey (including its tongue) can't get to the blades, and the fan should ideally be placed where it is unreachable.

My initial plan would be to have the fan outside the enclosure sitting on the screen next to the UVB, if that doesn't work then I was thinking the top of the cage, maybe even on a pivot angled down but yes if it was in the cage I would definately put a guard around it.

[Jeff]

Drafts can be dangerous for some BTS. You should be careful to not create a draft inside the enclosure. I have multiple fans set up in my skink room and always have. None of them are pointed directly at any enclosures though. They just keep the air in the room circulating and fresh. If you have good ventilation in your enclosures, that will be enough. The backs on my enclosures are pegbord which allows cooler air to come in through the bottom while forcing warmer air out the top. This venturi effect doesn't cause a draft, but it very slowly circulates the air in and out of each enclosure.

[jclaiborne]

Drafts can be dangerous for some BTS. You should be careful to not create a draft inside the enclosure. I have multiple fans set up in my skink room and always have. None of them are pointed directly at any enclosures though. They just keep the air in the room circulating and fresh. If you have good ventilation in your enclosures, that will be enough. The backs on my enclosures are pegbord which allows cooler air to come in through the bottom while forcing warmer air out the top. This venturi effect doesn't cause a draft, but it very slowly circulates the air in and out of each enclosure.

If I were to add more ventilation holes in the cages, wouldn't that also impact my ambients in the winter months? I keep the rooms ambient between 72-77 depending on how hot it is outside. However since that room that my skinks are in house all my reptiles I can't keep multiple fans going. If I were to use a fan on the top screen of the cages and used it to draw air out would that keep from causing a draft that could be dangerous to the blueys? I am going to hook the lamps that are in there up to a TSTAT this weekend to help regulate the basking temps, but the air is just stangnant and the room smells which has never been an issue before...

[Jeff]

If it is a small fan and it is is drawing air out and not blowing into the enclosure, there shouldn't be a problem, but you still need to make sure there isn't a draft in there especially if you have significant humidity.

More vents can allow more heat loss, but that should not be a problem if your heating is set up right. It will just take a little more energy to keep temperatures right. I have no problem at all keeping my temperatures right where I want them, but all of my enclosures are regulated by thermostats. Without thermostats, you will need to manually adjust things as necessary if you alter things that change the baseline temperature inside your enclosure.

[saisaac]

Out of curiousity: what makes drafts dangerous?

If you added ventilation by adding more vents, you can always cover those vents to lessen the heat loss during the winter. If the vent is metal, they make magnetic vent blocks that stick right over the opening and are removable/reusable.

[Jeff]

Out of curiousity: what makes drafts dangerous?...

I can not explain the why, but over the years it has become very clear that drafty enclosures greatly increase the chances of respitory infections. The degree of correlation varies from species to species, with shinglebacks probably being the most affected, followed by easterns, but it is something that I would avoid for all species since it is easy to prevent. The negative affect greatly increases as humidity rises. A moist draft is definitely something to be avoided.

[El Lobo]

A cold draft is the movement of air causing a drop in the temperature of the surface it touches; think of wind chill factor. Animals in small enclosures that may not always be able to avoid being caught in a draft will have their blood temperature drop more rapidly than that to which they can adjust, especially ectotherms.

Drafts are one of the major contributors to respiratory problems and death amongst caged birds.

[Scotts1au]

Why not simply reduce your heating in the enclosure? I use low wattage spots for mine (combined with a low wattage CHE run off a simple and cheap probe thermostat) which provides for ambients at night and a little extra heat if required to the spot. I go down to a 40W globe over the summer and 60-75 W over our winter. Not that I'm comparing winters but keep in mind, the more heat over a greater area in the enclosure the more "rarified/stuffy air" you will be producing.

[Tom]

You listed the problem as "stagnant" air, due to temps warming up. Is it getting too hot in the enclosure? If yes, then a simple wattage reduction over the summer months would solve the problem.

If "stagnation", and not heat, is your problem, I'm not sure I know what that means to you. With the same ventilation the air inside should be no more stagnant in summer than it is in winter. In my closed chambers there is plenty of air circulation just from me opening and closing the doors for daily maintenance tasks. I don't have any vents on them at all.

If you do choose to use a fan, may I suggest putting it inside the enclosure to move the warm humid air around, instead of either pushing or pulling colder drier air into your tropical enclosure? I recently introduced 4" computer fans into my large outdoor sealed and heated tortoise night boxes. These fans move the heated and humidified air around, but they don't draw any cold air in or push any warm air out. They just move the warm around in the box all around and help to more evenly disperse the heated air. I ordered my fans with a "speed controller" too. This allows me to easily control how quickly it circulates my air. I run them pretty low, for just a gentle air movement in my closed boxes over night. The speed controller is basically a rheostat in line. I plug the cord in to an outlet and plug the other end into my fan, and thats it.

[jclaiborne]

Thanks for all the replies! Basically yes the heat got to be a little too much, I now have the bulbs hooked up to dimmers that I had sitting around, which dropped the basking temps, but it just seems like there isn't enough air flow or ventilation in the cages, I have started leaving a 1/4in gap in the front doors and locking them in place with the ceiling fan on to try and get some more flow. I may try a "ram" style fan in the enclosure to circulate the hot air instead. I guess I could also just add some adjustable vents. I am in the process of building them both custom 4x2x2ft cages and will be using the vision for future babies. Right now for heat they just have the 75W basking bulbs, I had thought about switching to Radiant Heat Panels, but I haven't come across anyone that has actually used them for lizards, I know they work great for snakes, but everyone keeps telling me the basking bulbs are the best thing for the blueys because it mimics the sun.

[jclaiborne]

This is the fan that I was looking at. Variable speed with fully enclosed blades. http://www.vivariumelectronics.com/accessories.html

[Richard.C]

In a a cage with little ventilation,a fan may make cage closer to an incubator,a constant temp kind of thing,hot stuffy cages are crying out for more ventilation,making it easier to provide a good temp gradient,and allowing fresh air in and stsgnant excess hot air out

[Tom]

In my 4x8x2' closed chamber enclosure I run a 65 watt flood bulb. Anything more and it gets too hot. Works great as it provides a nice warm basking spot, and it slowly raises ambient throughout the day, which is how it happens outside too.

[Richard.C]

Your climate helps there tom,in a cold climate a 65 watter would struggle in a cage a third that size

Theres no set wattage for certain type cages,as everyones keeping conditions vary,some areas u dont need to warm ambients,just add basking areas,other areas u need to try and do both,part of reason i run a huge temp gradient,climate here suits that,i think its better for them in long run to,gives them choices ones in a very warm cage would otherwise not have access to,even in hot climates they can still find areas to escape warmth

[jclaiborne]

In my 4x8x2' closed chamber enclosure I run a 65 watt flood bulb. Anything more and it gets too hot. Works great as it provides a nice warm basking spot, and it slowly raises ambient throughout the day, which is how it happens outside too.

Tom where are you in SoCal? I am in san diego and found that in a 3x2x2 vision cage I have had to use a 75 watt basking bulb to get a basking spot of 100 degrees. My houses ambiemt is 72-78 durning the winter the bulbs at full power were perfect, but now that its heating up the temps spiked to a 120 degree baskimg spot so now they are on dimmers bt now I can't get the basking spot to stabilize...

[jclaiborne]

Your climate helps there tom,in a cold climate a 65 watter would struggle in a cage a third that size

Theres no set wattage for certain type cages,as everyones keeping conditions vary,some areas u dont need to warm ambients,just add basking areas,other areas u need to try and do both,part of reason i run a huge temp gradient,climate here suits that,i think its better for them in long run to,gives them choices ones in a very warm cage would otherwise not have access to,even in hot climates they can still find areas to escape warmth

Makes sense...so maybe I should add some vent holes to the side of the cages? I have read that you can add them to the low end of the cool side and the high end of the hot side and it will creat a gentle flow due to the heat rising.