Do I need D3?

[Dakota]

Hello my fellow forum people! Sorry to start a thread, but I thought this was a legitimate question.

I know all you know this, but just to make sure -- I keep my skinks on my patio/verandah.

After a few months of thinking about moving the skinks outside, I started testing the temperatures, to basically see if it was "do-able" to keep them outside night and day, and it turned out it was absolutely perfect. I have the cages aligned in such a way that the sun shines in 50% of the total length of the cages (which is 4 feet long). Giving 50% shade, and a water-bowl at the furthest point away from sun if it were ever to be needed (although it has not, I have kept them out in the hottest months here in Florida, all was OK). The cages have been aligned like this for quite some time (uh.. June? July??). So with the fact that the sun (not a UVB bulb, the actual sun and all its glory) shines in on them, and they absolutely love it (well the Meraukes and IJ's do, at least). I know for a fact that I can get sunburns just from the sun shining in on the patio through the screen. So, I know there is a reasonable amount of UV exposure through the screen enough for me to get burned. The average UV index for my city is 6-8 (we got a 6 the other day, and we are still in winter), which is considered "high" on the scale, so I would think the screen would cut it down to maybe 4-5 which would be considered moderate (most UV bulbs produce around ~1, which isn't very much), but still can easily get burned from what I'm reading. Just looking up pictures of Papua New Guinea, Papua, and West Papua, it looks to be between very shady, very sunny, and anything between, so it seems very variable.

I remember a dietitian coming on the forum saying too much D3 can be just as detrimental as too less. Considering I am actually getting the sun's (slightly diluted) UV rays, would I really need the extra D3 in their calcium? As far as I know, people only supplement D3 because UVB bulbs do not even compare to the sun's natural exposure. I also take all my skinks outside (if the weather is good) once a week to give them stimulation and a chance to soak up the radiation. I take Virginia, Riley, and Maxx out ever few days. Virginia, just about every day, actually.

Thanks,
Dakota

[dsteamn]

I wouldn't think they would need it. Mine stay in an outdoor enclosure during the summer months, so I only supplement in the winter.

[Mimo]

I'm not a expert at all but it seems to me that they won't need it. Nothing beats the sun though i would do some research on how much uv they usally get in the wild in teir natural habitat and compare that with the levels at your place.


Can you post pictures of your outside enclosure? I would love to see it. I wish mine could go outside but holland isn't a very warm place to be :p

[Richard.C]

You take them outside just about every day?

Arent they outside on the patio already?

Im confused

What do you feed them? And can u show a pic of them,how you have set them up on your patio,might be easier to answer your question then

If they have access to sunlight,eg not going through glass of fishtanks ect they should be ok with out d3,even calcium,if your feeding them a decent diet

[critterguy]

Based on anecdotal reports and some semi controlled experiments(including a little test done by Andrew Seike) it seems pretty clear that BTS cannot get all their D3 needs from UV light...they will suffer bone deformities if provided UV light but no dietary D3. Of course animals with no UV light but given dietary D3 did just fine. Note that dog food contains VitD3 already at least in levels suitable for canines so Calcium with D3 supplementation may not be strictly necessary on a dog food diet.

I think people on here in general read way too much into lighting for blue tongue lizards. These animals will do remain healthy under diffuse room lighting.

[mark_w]

Dakota it is my understanding that whilst an overdose of D3 is dangerous, it is actually very difficult to overdose it using standard vitamin and mineral supplement powders. Only what is required will be taken on board, the rest will pass on through. You have to be more careful with liquid D3. I use a good quality supplement on a regular basis, maybe 2 feeds in every 3. Brands that I have tried are Nutrobal, Nekton Rep and Repashy calcium plus. All contain calcium, D3 and various other vitamins and minerals. My skinks get no UV. For you, I would use just a little maybe one feed in every four/once per month. Personally, I don't think that would cause any harm and it might be beneficial.

Mark.

[Dood]

I agree that pictures would help

UV won't penetrate through glass, or plexi, so if this is the type of cage your skinks are in the sun is just providing heat.

[Dakota]

Richard, I keep them on my patio yes, but Virginia is at a spot where she does not get any UV/sun, and she is possibly gravid, so I like to take her out and get some. Riley and Maxx are still growing, reason why I also take them outside, although they do not enjoy it.

My diet varies, it is between various types of wet dog-food, minced beef, minced turkey (not all that often), various chicken organs (not often, either), mice, and snails.. I plan to start including roaches in their diet. For veggies, when I use them, I use "Spring Mix", fresh greens beans, collard greens, various types of squash, and something that is random but on the list under "occasional" on the diet chart.

As for the sun going through the glass, it depends on the day. In the early morning until around 2, the sun is at an angle where it shines down into the cages. But then it goes behind a few trees for about 30 minutes, and as soon as comes back, it is all the angle where it is shining through the glass and not providing any exposure.

I had just cleaned the cages in these photos, so no hides were placed back in. The ferret cage is not out there anymore, as well as the two 20 gals on the 55 stand. I placed Maxx on the 55 stand since he doesn't like the sun, but still gets heated up when the sun comes around from the trees.

cages.jpg

And I know that BTS benefit from D3, and the reason why people supplement it is because the bulbs are not providing enough to sustain. But I have the sun, not a bulb. I would like to get a UV index for my personal use, but probably not anytime soon.

[Tom]

Based on anecdotal reports and some semi controlled experiments(including a little test done by Andrew Seike) it seems pretty clear that BTS cannot get all their D3 needs from UV light...

Was this experiment done with artificial indoor electrical UV lighting or direct sunshine?

I ask because I am fortunate enough to live in a good climate where outdoor housing, at least during the day, is possible for most of every year. We might have 20-30 days a year with overcast skies and daily highs lower than 70 F. I think my skinks do get enough D3 in their diet, but I also think the sunshine does them some good. I don't use any indoor UV at all. This thread is making me question whether I should increase my D3 supplementation.

[Dakota]

Based on anecdotal reports and some semi controlled experiments(including a little test done by Andrew Seike) it seems pretty clear that BTS cannot get all their D3 needs from UV light...

I think you mean bulb, right? Because if they could not get all their needed D3 though UV "light", the ones in the wild would all have MBD.. since they do not get the supplemental D3 through calcium.

[Richard.C]

Tom I dont really supplement mine,indoors or out,but i feed mostly wet dogfood that contains supplements,i dont use uv lighting indoors either,im not reccomending not using supplements,just saying i dont and i havnt seen anything negative with that

Some animals have been indoors for 17 years like this,and offspring they produced up to 13 raised like this,dietry intake being important and why i like dogfood instsad of messing wirh whacky mixes i guess



Dakota thats why i asked you about diet,it wont hurt to add some supplements so probably to be on safeside id still add some with your diet,but yeah,being outdoors they should be ok without it,some folk use calcium with out d3 for outdoors stuff,usually for bigger more sun exposed enclosures though,but if your guys can access a bit of sun for most of the day theres no difference,but if that suns shining through the glass then that will filter out alot of the uv

[Susann]

When the sun shines into the tanks without going through the glass, do the skinks bask in that spot? What I would be afraid of is that, at the time when the sun shines into the tanks has got to be when the sun is up at its highest, which usually means that it's the hottest part of the day, and if the sun shines into the tanks through the glass throughout the larger part of the day, the skinks may not bee looking to be laying out in the direct rays during the hours that it shines in unobstructed.
So my advice would be to supplement D3 in their diet.

[Dakota]

Yes, my Meraukes and IJ absolutely LOVE basking. They have learned when to get up and where to bask at different times (morning to noon, it is the front of the cage, end of the day, it is the back end). If there is a spot to bask, you bet they will be there. If I remember correctly, it heated up to around 105 at most, during the summer, but winter it only gets around 95 at most.

[Dood]

Hummmm

If my skinks were hunting for sunlight I might suspect they were trying to self medicate and trying to get as much Vit D as possible, so I would be dusting their food and see if they change their ways.

[Richard.C]

I highly doubt skinks would know to seek out sunlight to get D3,they seek it out to raise body temps,not self medicate,on hot days they bask early,hide during hotter parts then bask late,to control body temp,they often control body temps from with in cover,easterns in parents back yard actually bask under pine needles for example

Out in the open basking puts them at risk,a heap of whistling kites nest in the pinetrees above,a cold bluey out in the open basking is like driving through a maccas drive through for them

[Dakota]

I think the reason they bask so much is to maintain them through nights.. but then again, they also basked a lot during the summer where nights were almost in the 80's, sometimes.

[Katrina]

UVB passing through glass or screen is not the same as basking directly under the sun.

Yes - we have NEVER seen blueys in the wild with any kind of calcium deficiency... however, we see it all the time in captivity, even with UVB bulbs or even in cases of blueys that can bask outside. We really can't answer your question scientifically, we don't know exactly how much D3 is too much, what the correct dosage for a bluey is, how much they can get from 6 hours outside in the sun... we don't have any scientific data to fall back on. If you look at what we know of their diet in the wild, it has a horrible Ca:P ratio so there is clearly more going on than the basics of Ca:P and UVB / D3 that we understand - so I don't think we can compare captive blueys to wild ones as far as diet or UVB goes. From what we have seen, we really can't seem to replicate it so we are better off to stick to what we know works from experience in most cases.

What we can go by (and this is the case for most of the advice we give on this forum) is by the collective experience of people who have kept many animals for many, many years. Some thoughts:

- I have NEVER seen or heard of a bluey with D3 overdose (not saying it can't happen or hasn't happened - I've just never heard of it)
- I have seen many, many, many blueys with calcium deficiency issues
- I have NEVER seen a case of MDB when regularly supplementing with calcium D3 powder
- I have seen cases of blueys with MBD / calcium deficiencies when given only UVB, only natural sunlight, or some combination of that

Based on that, I'd always err on the side of caution and add a bit of calcium w/ D3 powder. A lot of UVB is lost when the sunlight passes through mesh screen or glass, so what they are getting isn't equivalent to a bluey in the wild.

Just my thoughts.

[Dakota]

Good food for thought, Kat. Although I think they are definitely getting enough D3 though the patio alone (just guessing from sunburns, I do not have a UV index), but since you guys are saying it is almost impossible overdose on D3, I will just keep doing it.

However, I am going to by a calcium powder bottle with no D3, if I feel a food I'm giving should be supplemented more, and not have to worry about the extra, extra D3 going in it.

[Fatal_S]

Is the roof of the patio also screen?

[Dakota]

Is the roof of the patio also screen?

Roof is part of the roof of the house. The sun doesn't go directly over the patio. Here I'll draw something up:

Most of the day it is like this, from 7 to around 12 or 1 or so:

noon.png

Then it goes behind trees for a bit, and by the time is comes out, it is mostly through the sides of the cages, not down into them, so it is not providing any UVB, but it does provide a mild basking area:

end.png