Lizard smugglers sentenced

[acanthurus]

Can't say I have much sympathy...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-14/l ... rt/5261174

[CleverCritters]

Did anyone read the approximate value of the 30 lizards? Am I being naive; does $130,000 seem like a slight overestimate to anybody else?

[Dood]

I agree that the math is off.

At the end of the article they say $3000 per lizard plus $70 to $80 ---- 30 X $3,080 = $92,400 and not $130,000

[CleverCritters]

I hadn't even done the math (pretty funny though). I just meant that $3000/animal seems like a pretty generous valuation. I don't know anything about the black market, however the animals in the photos weren't super special. I saw this add for a very pretty "Desert" shingle back which I think is a much prettier animal, for less than one third of $3000: http://reptilesdownunder.com/ads/desert-shingleback-3-year-old-female/

[xxmonitorlizardxx]

CleverCritters, the animals were to be sold in Japan where the prices for Australian animals(excluding bearded dragons) are significantly more expensive than in Australia.
Those shinglebacks also looked like the ones from that "special" island locality (I forget what it's called).
So I would imagine they would've sold for a little more than $4000.

[Tom]

What I wonder is how many get away with it. Any idea?

Also, (this might be a can o'worms), how do Aussie's in general feel about their government's policy of no exportation ever in any circumstance? As someone from "the rest of the world", I find it very frustrating that exportation of small numbers of captive bred animals, of a species that is very abundant, cannot be allowed with proper documentation and fees.

I do feel sympathy for these Japanese men. I don't condone their illegal deeds in any way, but I can understand what drove them to attempt it. Australia has some truly amazing and unique animals. It is very upsetting to me that the government there has decided not to share them with the rest of the world. I think there would be less illegal smuggling (or none) if there were a legal, logical and sustainable way for non-Astralians to be able to get and care for these fantastic creatures. All we need is a few dozen per year to establish breeding colonies around the world. From what I can tell, more than that are killed on a single road in a year. Or in a strawberry farmers field. I'd be happy to go sit by an Australian farmers field and remove those "pest" shinglebacks that come in and eat up the crop. Or I could camp out next to a busy Australian highway and catch up all the skinks or snakes that were just about to meet their end under some car tires. Agree? Disagree?

[acanthurus]

I hadn't even done the math (pretty funny though). I just meant that $3000/animal seems like a pretty generous valuation. I don't know anything about the black market, however the animals in the photos weren't super special. I saw this add for a very pretty "Desert" shingle back which I think is a much prettier animal, for less than one third of $3000: http://reptilesdownunder.com/ads/desert-shingleback-3-year-old-female/

Clevercritters this add is in Australia. I can guarantee you that if the shingleback in that add was for sale in Japan it would be for a lot more than $3000.

What I wonder is how many get away with it. Any idea?

Also, (this might be a can o'worms), how do Aussie's in general feel about their government's policy of no exportation ever in any circumstance? As someone from "the rest of the world", I find it very frustrating that exportation of small numbers of captive bred animals, of a species that is very abundant, cannot be allowed with proper documentation and fees.

I do feel sympathy for these Japanese men. I don't condone their illegal deeds in any way, but I can understand what drove them to attempt it. Australia has some truly amazing and unique animals. It is very upsetting to me that the government there has decided not to share them with the rest of the world. I think there would be less illegal smuggling (or none) if there were a legal, logical and sustainable way for non-Astralians to be able to get and care for these fantastic creatures. All we need is a few dozen per year to establish breeding colonies around the world. From what I can tell, more than that are killed on a single road in a year. Or in a strawberry farmers field. I'd be happy to go sit by an Australian farmers field and remove those "pest" shinglebacks that come in and eat up the crop. Or I could camp out next to a busy Australian highway and catch up all the skinks or snakes that were just about to meet their end under some car tires. Agree? Disagree?

Tom I get what you are saying, although I don't think these guys were smuggling these out for their own collections, otherwise why would they be trying to smuggle 30 animals.

With the export of Australian animals I agree for some species it could be viable and very profitable. The problem will come with rarer species or in particular rare morphs of common species. There is already considerable pressure on some just from local collectors, such as wheat belt stimsons pythons, or the Pilbara spiny tail skink morphs. Whilst many would stick to the rules, I fear that this would also open the doors that much wider for those who are looking to break them and make a quick buck. For this reason, even with my collection of breeding goldfields that I could make a fortune from, I don't think that allowing export is the right move yet.

[critterguy]

I dunno acanthurus. It honestly seems like a win-win to me.

OZ could allow a small amount of permitted exports to leave the country. Each individual animal would have to be registered, microchipped etc.(all by the seller who can quickly pass the expense to the consumer who really will pay anything). Allow Australia to charge exorbitant permitting fees to both exporter and importer etc. etc. etc. and make it so animals are easily traced and their is no question they are a legal shipment(a small number of permitted exporters, select shipping dates and airports, a small list of species allowed for export etc.) Funds could go back into improving monitoring for illegal smuggling, hell even habitat preservation/restoration.

Its confusing as OZ does export large amounts of marine wildlife. One company in WA even holds permits for export of land hermit crabs-admittantly apples to oranges compared to reptiles but it is harvest all the same.

[CleverCritters]

Thanks Acanthurus,

I had no idea what Australian animals would fetch overseas, although I'm not convinced that the benefits of legalising and regulating such a practice wouldn't outweigh our concerns. Firstly, some smugglers must meet occasional success otherwise there simply wouldn't be the same number of Australian animals in overseas collections. I accept that some were transported by soldiers etc, but this can't be all of the Australian animals overseas. By condemning the practice, smugglers (in an effort to avoid detection) put their captives through hell. The animals are housed and transported poorly, often resulting in the death of the unwitting captives. Surely legalising and regulating the practice would at least minimise that by requiring exporters to comply with our processes (IATA transport, customs, quarantine etc).

I agree that we can't prevent illegal wildlife trade completely, but perhaps by allowing the legal export of some common species (providing that the animals are captive bred) we will take some pressure of wild populations and allow the authorities to spend more time protecting those rare species/morphs that Acanthurus mentioned. They could spend less time giving traveling business people who walk a little uncomfortably complimentary airport prostate exams and use some of the money/time saved to protect those sensitive species/locations. Just a thought.

[Jeff]

What has always confused me is why it has to be a situation where everybody is allowed to export, or nobody. What if the Australian government said, “We are going to award 5 licenses to export fauna from OZ. If you are interested in obtaining one of these licenses, go to http://www.___ to fill out an application.” That way they could pick 5 reputable people/companies to become exporters. It would not be too difficult to monitor and regulate such a small number of entities. They could set strict standarts and limits, and easily enforce them. It could be captive bred only, and whatever quotas they decided. Like Tom mentioned, it would not take a huge number of animals to get breeding programs started around the world, which would in-turn lessen the demand for illegally smuggled animals.

Edit: Sorry, this is kind of off topic from the original subject, but a very interesting topic just the same. In regards to the topic, I really don’t feel too bad for anyone who gets in trouble for BREAKING THE LAW.

[CleverCritters]

Perhaps if there ever is a time to do it, the time is now. To quote our fearless and perhaps slightly daft Prime Minister; "Australia is open for business!"

[xxmonitorlizardxx]

What has always confused me is why it has to be a situation where everybody is allowed to export, or nobody. What if the Australian government said, “We are going to award 5 licenses to export fauna from OZ. If you are interested in obtaining one of these licenses, go to http://www.___ to fill out an application.” That way they could pick 5 reputable people/companies to become exporters. It would not be too difficult to monitor and regulate such a small number of entities.

Those 5 people would quickly become millionaires!!!

[Jeff]

They would most likely already be millionaires if they were able to win the licenses.

[Tom]

Tom I get what you are saying, although I don't think these guys were smuggling these out for their own collections, otherwise why would they be trying to smuggle 30 animals.

You might be right and we have no way of knowing, but if you were going to illegally smuggle enough horny toads out of California, because you had NO other way to do it, and you likely only had one shot at it, how many animals would you try to get out? Again, I am not condoning any illegal activity, but speaking from a practical point of view, I would try to get as many as I could carry.

With the export of Australian animals I agree for some species it could be viable and very profitable. The problem will come with rarer species or in particular rare morphs of common species. There is already considerable pressure on some just from local collectors, such as wheat belt stimsons pythons, or the Pilbara spiny tail skink morphs. Whilst many would stick to the rules, I fear that this would also open the doors that much wider for those who are looking to break them and make a quick buck. For this reason, even with my collection of breeding goldfields that I could make a fortune from, I don't think that allowing export is the right move yet.

I'm not advocating this for any rare morphs, hard to find or endangered species. Just the plain old run of the mill species that are plentiful and very easy to come by. The species that are frequently found dead on the side of the road, or the species that are termed "pests" or "vermin" by farmers due to their sheer numbers. This does not seem difficult to regulate to me, and the rest of the world would happily pay all the inspection, licensing and exportation fees.

As critter guy pointed out, seems like a win-win for everyone involved. A few dozen animals a year are saved from being smooshed under tires or killed by farmers, some new jobs are created for inspectors and other government types, some enterprising Australians get a new job and earn a decent living, the rest of the world gets to share the company of some truly amazing and inspiring animals.

[Richard.C]

You guys forget that it can be hard to even legally aquire these species in australia,and especially wildcaughts,our goverments are quite stict in regards to what we can keep,and theres alot of red tape even for us here

Eg i know of no rottnest island shingles in captivity here,hard to breed them for export when there considered off limits to keepers here

Most species here are available out of aus already,might cost you a kidney but there out there

The regulating departments struggle to do there jobs here,cant see them adding more workload to the list,some states have only quite recently allowed the keeping of reptiles by private keepers,eg west oz,and only a select few wa endemics,not even northerns made that list

Tassie is the same,only tassie specimens can be kept,every state is different in regulations here and its very strict compared to you guys

[Dood]

If there was legal export then they wouldn't be nearly as rare so the price would drop.

If shingles are currently $4000+ on the black market, if it was swamped with new legal exports then the price of shinglesdrops to say $500, so illegally exporting them is not worth the money. Plus with these new animals, breeders have a chance to do CBB outside of Australia and further lower the prices.

[Jbolar]

as you all know sometimes the goverment acts with good intentions and sometimes they create problems, we all know that the goverment doesn't always make it's decisions based on science or fact, but rather politics.

i.e az fish and game has C. klauberi as a protected species, while they are easily found here in AZ their logic is " if they were allowed to be collected, they'd be the first ones taken and in mass" although then what about C. mollosus, C. cerberus, C. Mitchelli...

Gila monsters are not really endagered but because of a 50 year old ban on collecting them, no one is able to keep them here in arizona, but numerous other states have them. they are not lethal and poorly understood out here.

so i understand Australia's stance on exporting of native fauna which is if we just don't allow it we don't have to spend time to regulate it... arizona is the same way. but as a result it creates black market and smuggled animals.


many things need to change in the pet industry and in the import/export regulations and how things are done overall.. there are many atrocities as far as shipping standards and collecting standards and how animals are kept prior to export, and even than you still have the issue with how animals are kept when they make it into the country which a large portion goes to the keepers and vendors as well that bulk wholesale fresh imports to make a quick buck.

[El Lobo]

I may be wrong but there does seem a modicum of self-interest emerging in this thread.

[spandangle]

As a wildlife enthusiasts, I will go out on limb here and agree with most of you regarding the exportation of our wildlife. I do not, however, think this should be the exportation of wild caught stock. They should only be for captive bred stock.

The attitude in general in Australia needs to change somewhat in regards to our wildlife. It is perfectly legal to keep cats that do massive harm to our wildlife, yet, for example, we are not aloud to keep sugargliders in most states while these animals are kept legally overseas. The positives of keeping Australian wildlife as pets here and abroad will be beneficial to the long term survival of many species. And as Dood suggested above, allowing some of these animals on the overseas market will possibly drive down the black market that leads to the illegal trafficking of wildlife in the first place.

<cynicism> But hey, this is Australia. We are a country that loves regulators and we are an inept bunch that think living under a massive cloak of regulation all the time is beneficial no matter what. It also helps to keep many bureaucrats and public servants on six figure salaries off unemployment benefits by having them write pages and pages of regulations to justify their own existence. </cynicism>

[Richard.C]

We can keep sugar gliders in victoria

Wa has pretty stringent laws compared to most states,oddly enough the keeping of native birds is alot less stringent even in wa,they dont seem to get apposed to as much as other native animals