Where do they come from?

[dsteamn]

I've been wondering about something. Its my understanding the borders have been closed to reptiles for quite some time now. I realize things are smuggled in periodically. However, I often see animals that are OBVIOULSY W/C.

Case in point, there was an indo in our local pet store the other day. He was so freaked out about being in the enclosure that every time someone walked past the glass, he would lunge at it and try to bite them. The owner let me pick it up. Instead of the normal anxious behavior of hissing, puffing, and peeing/pooping, this guy started doing death rolls in my hand. He was literally jerking both my hands back and forth as I tried to keep up with his violent wriggling and struggling to get free. He opened his mouth and held it in that position for minutes on end waiting for someone to get close enough to strike. When he realized he couldn't get away, he closed his eyes and played dead.

The store let me bring him home to try and calm him down a little. After five days, I returned to the store with him in my sweater (with another layer of sweater between me and his mouth in case he had any ideas). I go in every couple of days and handle him to try and desensitize him to human touch. Again, today, he rolled in my hands, but it was more of a twisting roll rather than the way he did it the first time I held him. I feel sorry for the little guy because he will never understand or be happy like a captive bred animal is. I figure spending time with him while he is there is the least I can do to help him out a little.

[donkeybuff]

Indonesia allows the export of captive bred reptiles, but it's easier and cheaper to just ship off wild caughts. They make it here because the people regulating the shipments either don't care or can be persuaded with a few indonesian rupees. The US allows importation of reptiles so no issues there. It is Australian skinks that have to be smuggled.

[dsteamn]

Ah, got it. I thought the borders were closed to all species from everywhere. That explains why so many of them end up there then. How tragic for the animals. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Tom]

While it certainly can be tragic, none of us would have, or probably know much about, any reptiles if people didn't import wild ones for us to work with. While I won't argue that some of these imports meet a sad end, many of them thrive, end up with people like some of the forum members here, and go on to reproduce, thereby reducing the need for wild ones, and providing pet owners with an easier road.

I have to disagree when people try to paint all importation of WC animals as somehow horrible or "tragic". So the one you have been spending time with at the pet shop is very defensive. Many of them are not, and adjust quickly and readily to captive life. Even if some people choose (wisely in my opinion) to buy only CB animals, there would not BE any CB animals without WC animals coming first. Our hobby is, and always has been dependent on removing animals from the wild to suit our purposes. We are all responsible for this, even if you only have CB animals in your collection. I don't find it tragic. I find it pretty cool that I can get a lizard from half way around the world, take care of it, learn from it and enjoy it.

[Scincoides]

Tom, that was really well said. Thank you

[dsteamn]

Yes. ABSOLUTELY very well stated, and I agree with everything you said. I guess the point I am trying to make is that, although it was necessity at one point, there are so many being bred now, I really don't see the point in continuing to pull from the wild. I don't think there's much left out there that can't be obtained CB.

Case in point, I have a 180 gallon reef tank that is full of over 50 varieties of coral. However, rather than taking from the reefs, they are all aquacultured. We raise them and trade/sell them between each other. While the reason behind that decision is to preserve the reefs, the fact remains that the animals are happier and thrive better in closed tank systems that have never been in the open ocean. I can only come to the same conclusion with skinks.

[Dakota]

So many gigas being bred, you say?

[dsteamn]

Well, certainly not enough to have an influx in the stores, but well enough that you can find them if you want one. Just making a point, that's all. Not trying to be confrontational or argumentative. There are certainly good points being made on both sides. I was just talking about what it does to the animals psychologically and emotionally when we collect and force into captivity.

[Tom]

No need for "confrontation". Its just a fine line. No one wants to see animals unhappy or improperly cared for.

On one hand, wild animals in the wild is pretty cool and this should be revered, respected and protected, as well as enjoyed when possible. On the other hand we all love our pets, and our lives are enriched by having them. In many cases a species can also be helped or even saved from extinction with human help in captivity.

While I don't think anyone will advocate raping and pillaging the wild, some people, people who have their own pets and keep animals in captivity, seem to lean in an animal rightist direction and imply that taking animals out of the wild is some sort of horrible evil thing to do in every case. Some of these people feel "righteous" about what they are doing and saying because their particular animals are all captive bred. This ignores the fact that they are financially rewarding the people who are responsible for removing their animal's parents from the wild previously. I just find it hypocritical (in a general sense, not referring to anyone in particular) when people who have captive exotic pets rail against taking animals from the wild.

There are many animal rights groups out there working publicly, AND quietly behind the scenes, to make it so that we cannot pursue our hobbies and interests. The above explained sentiment is promoted by them and helps them sway public opinion and law makers in their favor. I don't want my rights restricted any further, and I don't want my pets and pursuits banned. Because of this I am compelled to speak up when I see a thread like this. I hope this helps explain where I am coming from.

[Scotts1au]

Living in Aus I don't get to see Indos, but it was both exciting and sad when in Canada in 2012 I got to hold an Indo in a pet store. Sad because I knew it had been taken from the wild, sad because I knew it would see out it's days without breeding. Sad because one day someone in Indonesia will be describing how they used to have bluetongues.

[Fatal_S]

Deforestation in Indonesia has had a massive environmental impact on the country, home to some of the most biologically diverse forests in the world, ranking third in number of species behind Brazil and the Democratic Republic of Congo.[1] As late as 1900, Indonesia was still a densely forested country: the total forest represented 84 per cent of the total land area. Deforestation intensified in the 1970s[1] and continuously accelerated since then. As a result, the estimated forest cover of 170 million ha around 1900 decreased to 98 million ha by the end of the 20th century, at least half of which is believed to be degraded by human activity.[2] At then-current rates it was estimated in 2008 that tropical rainforests in Indonesia would be logged out in another 10 years.[3] The illegal share of all logging is ca 80% in Indonesia.[4] According to Google maps satellite images to 2012 Indonesia is losing around the same amount of forest as Brazil annually, despite being only a quarter of the size.[5]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_in_Indonesia

The concept of leaving animals in the wild is sweet and all, but doesn't really hold up given that humans are obliterating "the wild" at a stunningly rapid pace.

[Susann]

Good point Mel.

[Dakota]

Hmm.. I hear Papuans actually kill wild BTS, since they are thought to be venomous. They'd probably be happy they are gone.

[Richard.C]

Papuans are just disgusted gigas are so hideous looking compared to aussie forms ;p

[Scincoides]

They are killed strictly because the indonesian people are jealous of Aussie Scincoides

[Richard.C]

I heard from an old timer indo contact that his forefathers even went so far as to dig out the land bridge between australia and indonesia just to stop the hideousness of indo blueys tarnishing the aussie forms

[Scincoides]

Doesnt surprise me at all richard. I keep my indos in a seperate room on the other side of the house from the Aussies so that they arent forced to face the fact that they are clearly inferior creatures. I dont want to risk any gigas suicides.

[Scotts1au]

Keep gigas away from reflective surfaces and make sure they don't have access to bedsheets or sharp objects.

[Dakota]

Hahaha, very funny! But I think the scincoides are more jealous because they aren't as attractive as gigas!

Gigas are surperiour, I thought everyone knew that.

[Scincoides]

Everyone that has never seen a scincoides in real life knows that Dakota..