Skink's tail starting to deform

[Jambi]

Hi everybody.
I've posted on here a few times before about my Skink, but I'm starting to notice a bit of an issue he seems to be having with his tail. I posted this is a Skink group on facebook, so I'm gonna copy/paste what I said

Hey all. So I posted that picture of my IJ Blue Tongue a week or so ago. Lately I've been noticing a change in the way his tail looks. I'm concerned about metabolic/nutrient disorders, obviously. He eats mainly chicken/beef/turkey catfood, as well as crickets, various produce from around the house (not lettuce or anything like that, I pretty much know what good produce vs bad produce is) plus the occasional egg or pinky mouse. He has UV light and basks accordingly. I use calcium/D3 supplement quite often, like most of the time, like for almost every feeding.

I took an overhead shot of his tail, and a few other crucial angles.

The people in the FB group seemed to suspect MBD, but he eats what I imagined was a pretty healthy diet, has proper lighting and he's very active, very alert.
What do you guys think?

[Linnea]

It definitely looks like MBD.

The quick answer would be that the diet seems to not be enough. The reason for this is that chicken/turkey is rich in protein, but completely lack calcium and fat. even a dusting on every meal cannot make up for this, so while its healthy food to feed every now and then, chicken/turkey must not be fed exclusively. Regular meat is much more protein/calcium/nutrient balanced.

from the photos your skink also look quite thin, but not dangerously so. is he male come out of brumation or has he recently had a vet visit for parasites, and how often do you feed?

My advice would be to start feeding beef dog food instead of turkey/chicken with the regular veggies and greens, and skip the crickets for a while since they will not help much with the weight or calcium ratio.
also, not every feeding needs to be dusted when you feed dog food, every other is okay. overdosing d3 and calcium isnt good, and if fed balanced again it should work itself out.

i would also boost the feeding frequency a lot, three times a week until hes reached a little more chubbyness. Keep an eye on the kinks, with the proper diet they shouldnt multiply, but handle your skink with care until hes gotten better since MBD make them a ltitle fragile.

[Richard.C]

Yeah i suspect slight mbd issue,tails seem to get the kinks easily ,i have a couple of northerns with the same looking tails,one even has it down his back,they came to me like this,hasnt gotten worse in the 4 to 5 years ive had them now and they behave like normal

I feed predominantly dogfood to mine, and havnt seen tail kinks in any ive raised on it to date,but oldest baby northerns are only about 2 now,they seem more prone to issues compared to other aussie species,tannies seem prone as well,suprisingly there cousins the easterns dont seem as prone but i may just not of seen many with it

Dietry intake is of way more importance than uv light,so my guess is diet related,might only be a slight imbalance,what brand catfood do you use?

[Jambi]

Oh, I actually do give him beef cat food when it's around, not just the turkey and the chicken. My house is always stocked up on different kinds of cat food because we have a cat, and I dont buy the food. I give him a variety of beef, turkey, and chicken. (I forgot that in the list, in my haste)

I'm relieved to hear that it's a "slight MBD issue" rather than a severe one, I realize it's progressive and I'm glad it seems to have been caught relatively early.

As for his weight, he's a pretty good eater but he usually slows down this time of year. (Consequently, to avoid throwing out food, I feed him a bit less) He doesnt usually drop a lot of weight, he just gets a bit thinner. He'll probably put it back on when it gets warmer out.


What would you guys suggest as a course of action from here on in? This animal is very important to me, I've had him since he was a few weeks old and I do not wanna see him suffer complications from this down the road.

[Jambi]

Bump for Jambi

[Richard.C]

Me personally,id feed straight pedigree dogfood in 5 kinds of meat or beef flavour,you can add vegies ect to it,personally i dont,but thats only suggestion as thats what i feed mine which seems to prevent this issue or for ones already with it,it hasnt appeared to get any worse

There plenty of good ways to feed them healthily though

[Jambi]

Just the Pedigree food? Nothing else?

What's the prognosis from here on in, if all goes well?

[Richard.C]

Thats just what i feed,im odd though,lol,most people add veg to it

Prognosis if rectified os just cosmetic,should live normal life,if left unchecked it could get worse

[Teacup]

Just wondering what kind of veg you offer? Veggies high in oxalates will bind calcium, which can cause problems if they're the majority of what is offered.

This is my favourite food chart when picking veggies since it has good info about which are high in oxalates, and what the calc/phos ratio is like: http://www.greenigsociety.org/foodchart.htm

Honestly, I am surprised you are seeing an issue, though, since it sounds like your guy has a healthy diet and a good set up. Good luck with him!

[Jambi]

It varies, depending on what my mom keeps in the house. Any combination of apples, carrots, kale, tomatoes, cucumbers, etc.

[Jambi]

Here he is after a few big meals... looks a fair bit better doesnt he?

(Except all the coco fiber on his head... )

[Katrina]

If you are supplementing with calcium D3 and offer UVB - I'd be very, very surprised if it is MBD. Not all kinks are related to calcium deficiency and I've NEVER heard of a bluey that is regularly supplemented with Calcium D3 develop MBD.

Lots of BTS have kinds in their tails from birth / in the womb. It is odd to see this develop later on, but a calcium deficiency should show other signs before it starts bone deformities. Are you sure he hasn't always had some kinks in the tail? Could anything have hurt it? I would put money that this isn't any kind of MBD / calicum problem.

[Jambi]

He has recently developed the habit of trying to climb up the wall of the tank... probably beats his spinal column up a bit... that's the only thing I can possibly think of.

I know it's a new habit because over time he managed to claw holes straight through his Oreo box hide box, and he's never done that before.

[Fatal_S]

I'll disagree with Kat for once, and put my money on the start of MBD. Tail kinks are often the first visible sign in my experience. Thankfully the tail kinks don't do much, but it's a sign something needs to change before the MBD gets worse. I'm not great with nutritional science, but I do know that chicken is a bad choice for a main protein source (personal experience, much worse than your guy). Most meats that humans eat are purely muscle-meats, whereas animals often eat entire animals - bones, organs, flesh, etc.

If you have some extra cash you could spend, I would consider getting an x-ray done. It's not terribly expensive, and it could give you a much clearer answer on what's going on. If the bones appear strong on the x-ray, you know it's something else. If they appear faded, you know you need to work on that.

I would suggest using something like dogfood as your main protein source (other meats are still an awesome treat). Dogfood has all that extra junk (organs, flesh, etc) already included. From personal experience, switching to a dogfood based diet has done wonders for my skinks. My original diet was quiet crappy (mostly chicken for protein, but without even the added calcium + D3). Many of my skinks have MBD issues because of it - some passed away. Since switching, I have not had any issues. And in a recent x-ray of one of my skinks, the bones were very strong, and the vet said there was great calcium storage (two dots on the head apparently? X-rays are neat). I cannot fix the skinks that already have kinks, but at least I know they're doing well now and not getting any worse

Climbing the walls of the tank can definitely damage the back, but it's a very specific kind of damage. The spine begins to bend, and it looks like a dip in the back. I do not believe it could cause tail kinks.

Please note that this is all my personal opinion, and I do not claim to be an expert. I'm simply offering up what I think I know, and what has worked well for myself.

[Tom]

Here's my question: In this skinks past, was there a time when someone might have been a bit lax with the D3 or calcium supplementation, or the UV, or the diet in general?

During the slow process of skeletal demineralization, you don't often see these kinks. Swollen or "muscular looking" limbs, and sometimes a bowing lower jaw, but seldom are there visible signs in the tail or spines. In severe cases you can sometimes see paralysis of the rear limbs or even muscular tremors or twitches. When the skeleton becomes demineralized, it becomes more pliable or "rubbery" if you will. The tendons, ligaments and muscles can then pull or stretch the bones into slightly different shapes, or out of alignment. Usually this is not visible from the outside, hence the good suggestion above of an x-ray. Then, if husbandry improves, and calcium/D3 needs start being met the skeleton will begin to re-mineralize, but it will remineralize in it misshapen state. THIS is where you would typically see spinal or tail "kinks". I've seen this pattern repeated many times in many lizards. Its most common in green iguanas and beardies, in my experience.

So it is likely that given your current routine that you don't have a problem right now, but it seems likely that there was some problem in the past.

[Jambi]

I have had Jambi since he was a few weeks old, and the care I have given hasnt varied much.

[Jambi]

Are rodents a good way to hitch up their calcium intake? Jambi loves them and I know they contain calcium in their bones.

[donkeybuff]

Young rodents like fuzzy/pinky mice do not contain much calcim, as their bones are not very developed. Are you feeding adult mice? Their bones are more developed. I personally feel that using a supplement would be much easier. Gutloaded insects are good too.

[Jambi]

I fed him today what I bought as "crawler" mice... not sure what that means but they are fully furred, eyes probably just opened, I got them for my this-season Caulker Cay Boa... if that gives any size reference.

It was big enough that I gave it to him in two pieces.

I use supplement too, always have.

[Jambi]

Tail actually looks a bit less kinked now that he's got some weight on...