Identifying juvenile Northern (T. scincoides intermedia)

[Dood]

Hello, I am getting conflicting information on how to I.D. a juvi Northern BTS. I've been to several pet stores that supposedly have them but when I view them in person they look more like IJ as they lack impressive peach side blotches and every one has had black or darkly motled front legs I am also checking my local classified ads and see juvinile, and adult, 'Northerns' that do not resemble the pictures on this site.

So my question is do young T.s. intermedia look the same as adults or are the pet stores scamming people? Do juvi's have darker front legs that will lighten with age and peachy areas that will get more pronounced over time?

Thanks.

[critterguy]

Babies look similar to adults once they have the first shed. The pattern will change a bit as they age.

Not all pure Northerns have clean front limbs. Some bloodlines have much less prominent yellow and black contrast than others. But if you buy something like that expecting it to look like your mental image of a Northern when it ages you will be dissapointed.

[donkeybuff]

Black or mottled front legs almost certainly means that they are not any subspecies of T. scincoides, and are probably T. gigas subspecies.

You can find pictures of both babies and adults at http://bluetongueskinks.net/bnorth.htm

[Jeff]

Can you take a picture of the skinks in question? It will be fairly easy to tell you if they are northerns, if we can see them.

[Bluish]

Take a close look at some of the babies being offered here in the classifieds to get an idea of what they should look like.
There's someone on one of the classified sites in Ontario selling hybrids as "Northerns". I'm sure the average pet store clerk/buyer probably would not know the difference and would sell them as Northerns so as always "buyer beware". The stores often tell people that they got their baby "Easterns" directly from the breeder when invariably they are Meraukes.

[Dood]

Thanks for the great info

It's good to know that some dark areas on the front legs is possible and they my look a bit different before the first shed.

I dont want to stir up any trouble or infringe on copy right by posting pics.

I dont mind waiting for the 'right' looking Northern but wanted to be sure I wasn't totally off base on identification.

There is a big reptile expo this weekend that I plan to attend and hopefully I can find my BTS there.

Thanks for the help.

[Fatal_S]

Once you know what a northern looks like they're nearly impossible to miss. Have a look at the avatar of the first person who replied (critterguy). See how the sides are vibrant yellow/black/yellow/black/yellow/black, like a bee? That's a northern.

I suggest taking a photo of a northern, and IJ, a merauke, and an indo with you to the expo. That way you have a quick reference to compare to any skinks you see.

Many, many pet stores and importers will label anything as a northern. Or label northerns as IJs. Or label either as easterns. You can't trust the label, so practice IDing the different species. It's hard at first, but once you catch on it becomes easy as pie

[Dood]

I just wasn't sure if BTS's were like Leopared geckos where the patterning of the young looks radically different than adults. Even some of my cornsnakes can change colour with each shed and it can be a shock at what a hatchling can turn into.

I have been practicing identifying the different subspecies using the linked site above but it ain't easy especially when hybrids get thrown into the mix!

I didn't even know there were different sub-species until I decided to get a BTS and did some research.

I want a Northern, so as long as I stick to my guns and wait for the 'right' one that without question looks like a Northern, I'll be happy.

[Bluish]

I suggest taking a photo of a northern, and IJ, a merauke, and an indo with you to the expo. That way you have a quick reference to compare to any skinks you see.

Many, many pet stores and importers will label anything as a northern. Or label northerns as IJs. Or label either as easterns. You can't trust the label, so practice IDing the different species. It's hard at first, but once you catch on it becomes easy as pie

The real problem is the hybrids that are being produced. The pure species look very distinct as babies but many of the hybrids being sold here look very Northern.
I've seen Merauke/Northern crosses that looked essentially Northern. Others that looked very Northern but with definite traits of another species probably I.J./Northern hybrids.
I could see that it would be very difficult for someone new to the hobby to differentiate.

[Richard.C]

a good reason to by from a reputable breeder,takes out the guess work

[Bluish]

a good reason to by from a reputable breeder,takes out the guess work

Definitely.
Problem is that many new hobbyists are often unaware of issues such as hybridization or w.c. vs. c.b.b. or that they can even buy from breeders. They also tend to trust that the store clerk or show vendor is honest and an "expert".
The only 2 litters of babies I've seen on our local classifieds being sold by breeders have been hybrids. One litter was listed specifically as Northerns.