cross breeding?...

[awilcocks]

so i've asked this on the FB BTS group and Larissa Lurid said its highly frowned upon...

but what about, crossing breeds...i'm not considering it, bc i just have no interest in it...but why not if a merauke has good size and IJ's have good attitude and both are beautifully marked...why not, if it took...i understand that if everyone got into cross breeding the breeds would go from about 8, to more like 100+ and upwards if the mutts were bred and cross bred...and having a bts would be as common as having a BP bc there'd be more readily avail, at cheaper prices, and it wouldn't be as "prestigious" of a creature to have..again...i DONT plan on breeding my 2...if i was going to breed..i'd spend the $ and get a couple female merauke's and a male just incase my male..is a female..and my IJ is no where near ready to breed...

but what if you bred them just purely to have as your own...not to sell..but just to have a different kind for your own personal collection...why not...

this has always bugged me and is just one of those nagging questions i had to get out..just to get some input, and gentle criticism.

[Fatal_S]

I'm not going to have enough time to make a full reply here, but try using the search function on the forum. This has been talked about many, many, many times before. When I get back I may have time for a more in-depth reply. This blurb will be rushed, sorry.

Have you ever tried to ID a cross-bred blue tongue? It's often not easy. What about a 2nd generation cross-bred blue tongue? Might be hard for even an expert to know it's a mutt.

The people who are against cross-breeding are the ones who are trying to look out for all the species. We know every species is unique, and awesome, and in 50 years we still want to have all the species we have now. We do not want to lose species via careless breeding. For many species we can not get new bloodlines - if we mess up the ones we have now, that species is gone for us.

Once you ignore the individual species, you do not get more breeds - you destroy your pure species and eventually all you have left is one mutt-type. No more northerns, no more shingles, no more meraukes. All you'd have is one "blue tongue skink" that's a bit of all the previous species. Now this is the extreme, but it's what people who like the different species are trying to avoid. We have already lost many lines that are irreplaceable, we don't want to mess up what we still have.

In reality there will always be the breeders who care about species who keep their bloodlines pure, and the people who don't care and cross-breed. The issue for pure-breeders is, if all the outside lines are contaminated, they can never bring in new blood to their lines. This is why great breeders really care about where their breeding skinks come from - they want to be sure they're doing all they can to keep the species clean. Because even wild-lines can not be 100% guaranteed clean, there is always some chance that there are other species in a line, but breeders try their best.

[Spankenstyne]

Well said Mel.

Also to the OP: while people may have the best of intentions of keeping every one they breed for themselves or to be honest and forthright in representing what they have (IE: labelling as crosses when selling) who is to say that the next person will also act in good faith? Who's to say that they won't fall into the hands of someone either intentionally or unintentionally misrepresenting them or breeding them and passing them off as pure and muddying up the gene pools?
We already have a limited enough gene pool in North America, it's up to us to breed responsibly and keep the subspecies, lines, & "types" pure so not only us but future generations can enjoy them as well. There is no benefit to crossing in our captive collections.
It's a completely other Pandora's box of debate altogether but people who want to breed (any animal) should be doing so for a reason, with a goal in mind. Speaking in a hobby/enthusiast sense, whether it's taking the healthiest & nicest looking examples to improve on, or propogating animals that are poorly represented in numbers in the hobby are examples. "Just because" or "just to do it" aren't valid reasons. It's a big responsibility and shouldn't be taken lightly.

[Spindown]

Well said all. I highly agree with breeding for a purpose, and I dont count breeding only for profit or fun as valid reasons. I also HATE knee-jerk breeders (OMG I am brand new to reptiles but I got this cute bearded dragon and I'm going to breed it and make cute babies I can sell and make $$$!!) I personally have chosen to breed my Blueys because there are few breeders in my area period, and I have never seen Northerns available at any of the expos I have attended, despite being told once or twice that they would be at a certain expo or other. I also plan on breeding my Indo when I find a girlfriend for him, in order to help both provide CBB animals to make better pets, and to take pressure off of the wild populations. Same with my Kenyan sand boas. I would never breed anything common because I feel that is just adding to the problem, and I HAVE had the opportunity to breed several common species. I waited 3 years , and did a LOT of research before making the decision to breed my animals. I have the passion and room to keep any and all babies I produce this year if I have too, and I feel that is absolutely something that people should be able and willing to do if they take the breeding plunge. (That is also why I only paired one of each species this year, both to test the market and to keep it manageable just in case

Not to mention, as I'm finding out...breeding is nerve wracking! You risk your pets life every time you breed. If you just want more animals, and dont want to risk your current loved critters...just buy another one, from a good breeder!

As to the question of "but what if you bred them just purely to have as your own...not to sell..but just to have a different kind for your own personal collection...why not..."

At some point, if they leave your ownership at any point before death...it is almost GUARANTEED that they will slip into the market as a pure locale of some sort. Maybe not from the person who gets them directly from you, but at some point, it will get lost in translation, unless you are SERIOUSLY lucky. I am convinced that this has a high probability of happening both from my experience at expos, where some vendors who purchase animals from others dont even know what they have...and from my experience with Craigslist and other such sites, where some people dont even know what SPECIES they have! (I still have NO idea how someone could be that ignorant...)

[awilcocks]

awesome feedback, i'm loving it...and i agree with EVERY THING said...once i read it all, it sank in and they're all the best reasons not to crossbreed...

[Edward]

As a strong advocate of genetic species purity, my opinion is very biased. And all the good points and valid rationales have been brought up above. So, I will just add that I have yet to hear a reasonable, unselfish, educated argument in favor of cross-breeding BTS species.

[Linnea]

there is also another thing ive yet to see in the arguments against crossbreeding.
rather than using it as an argument for either side i like to pose it as a scenario.

the merauke and the shingleback are both very different skinks. they live in very different environments, eat a little differently and adapt to seasons differently throghout the thousands of years theyve been separated by an ocean. they also give birth to a different amount of young skinks.

if these were to mix, how healthy would the baby skinks be?
would they get serious problems later in life, or invisible problems that make them feel bad or pose problems we dont see?
how would you keep the skinks in optimal condition?
how would you go about breeding or brumating them, ro the basking temps?

there is still so much to be learned about how unique each and every skink is. intervening to mix species without a real reason can be a very dangerous mission.