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do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside question
Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:04 am
by curtbone123
hi i was wondering do bts need uvb light cuz i talked to some people and they said no some other people said yes so i wanna make sure also if i take my bts outside how many degrees does it has to be and how long can they stay out there?
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:15 am
by Dakota
I don't UVB, and they are extremely healthy. Just make sure you supplement with Ca+D3, and give the proper diet.
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:52 am
by Linnea
UVB light or calcium with D3 is needed.
its is mostly recommended to supplement over the uvb lightbulb as they need to be exchanged and the bts will need calcium supplement in either case.
to explain this in better detail, it is good to know why you hear uvb light is needed and not, so ill give it a try.
when UVB light hits the skin of any day living creature on earth, the skin will use it to produce the vitamin D3.
the vitamin D3 is used in the body to process calcium, and make bone, for example.
MBD, metabolic bone disease, is mostly a result of lacking the vitamin D3, often from poorly balanced diets. it is not reversible, but can be stopped in time. the easiest way to spot it is to look for kinks in the tail and back - it should be entirely straight with no crooks or bumps.
ask more if you need to.
if you decide to take your bluey outside, id say let it be 20-25 C or so. dont put the skink in the middle of a boiling sunny day, and make sure there is shadow too. dont look away for even a second. if you have large birds, many cats or dogs in the area, be very very close by. nesting birds go crazy when they see reptiles, and are not so frightened by humans. bts run very fast and acceletate quickly.
about the time, well.....make the first time a bit shorter (10-20). and then decide if you wish to bring your bluey outside more - they dont need to, and if theyre particularly stressed out and scared by the open view, make sure ot bring a little hiding spot(piece of cloth).
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:55 am
by curtbone123
Linnea wrote:UVB light or calcium with D3 is needed.
its is mostly recommended to supplement over the uvb lightbulb as they need to be exchanged and the bts will need calcium supplement in either case.
to explain this in better detail, it is good to know why you hear uvb light is needed and not, so ill give it a try.
when UVB light hits the skin of any day living creature on earth, the skin will use it to produce the vitamin D3.
the vitamin D3 is used in the body to process calcium, and make bone, for example.
MBD, metabolic bone disease, is mostly a result of lacking the vitamin D3, often from poorly balanced diets. it is not reversible, but can be stopped in time. the easiest way to spot it is to look for kinks in the tail and back - it should be entirely straight with no crooks or bumps.
ask more if you need to.
ok so if i use the calcium with d3 i wont need the uvb light is that correct?
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:58 am
by Linnea
that is correct.
after all, if the body has enough D3 in the body it would not need to produce more.
uvb --> D3
or d3 directly.
make sure to read up on the dosage of the D3 too - the body cannot produce too much by itself in the sun, but when supplemented the A,D,E,K levels can get too high, which isnt good.
i have one plain calcium powder, and one with multivitamin (including D3). i alterate between them.
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 12:07 pm
by curtbone123
Linnea wrote:that is correct.
after all, if the body has enough D3 in the body it would not need to produce more.
uvb --> D3
or d3 directly.
make sure to read up on the dosage of the D3 too - the body cannot produce too much by itself in the sun, but when supplemented the A,D,E,K levels can get too high, which isnt good.
i have one plain calcium powder, and one with multivitamin (including D3). i alterate between them.
ok
for an adult skink should i feed it daily?
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 12:58 pm
by Richard.C
with or with out uv lighting u will need to supplement its diet with calcium/vitaminn d3,uv lighting alone wont give them there required calcium or d3,alot of folk dont bother using uv lighting as they do just as well with out it,as dietry intake of cacium D3 is of way more importance
if u feed an adult daily it will only need a small amount,2 to 3 times a week is ample for adults if meal size is decent
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 2:57 pm
by Susann
curtbone123 wrote:hi i was wondering do bts need uvb light cuz i talked to some people and they said no some other people said yes
Have you read the Caresheet? Most of your recent questions are answered in the Caresheet
but if you don't find enough that it answers your question in there, then there is a nifty "Search this forum" button at the top of the list of threads. It's right next to the "New Topic" button you push every time you put up a new question here.
Then, if you still need more answers or want members to clarify something, put up a question.
I don't want to make you feel like you are not welcome to ask questions of us, of course we want to answer whatever questions you have, but if you could
first look through the stuff that people have already typed in, then it gets a lot easier on everybody.
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 1:13 pm
by Rbizzle
I'd say follow the care-sheet and use UVB. Just like any other reptile that is active during the day. A supplement is just that, A SUPPLEMENT(Something to help make up, for anything it's missing from it's main source.) It's not ment to be used as the main source of D3 and can actually be quite harmful if given in incorrect doses. Your BTS may seem healthy with no UVB but over dose of D3 does take time and it's not like your skink can tell you it's happening. One person said not to use the bulb,s because they need to be replaced, this sort of sounds like a lazy excuse to me. What happens when you run out of calcium or powdered d3? It has to be replaced as well. As I said before, with the powder you have to be very careful with your dosage.
What I would suggest is use the UVB and just plain calcium. As any missing d3 can also be made up by a proper diet, as d3 comes in many varieties of foods your skink can eat. This way you can supplement them more naturally with out a chance of over dose, or a sick BTS later on. I personally believe buying Calcium with D3 is just the lazy cheap way. It's always better to buy and provide things separately then to buy the easier cheaper alternative of a premix. It's like buying the cheaper cereal because it comes with a free box of day old milk, when you could have spent a little more and got to choose out of a variety of cereals and got fresh milk! Also with only using the calcium with D3 you are utting all your eggs in one basket and depending on just a supplement(Again no supplement should be used as a main source, heck that'd be like a human living off vitamin pills and never eating proper veggies or fruit.) Sure you can use it, just dont rely on it. If anything maybe use that mixed powder 1-4 times a month max (and then just regular calcium the rest of the time). If you think your skinks diet is not helping keep up with what it may be lacking. But if research is done correctly it shouldn't be lacking anything.
I keep reptiles of all types most are diurnal. And I would never feed calcium with d3 to them, as I take great care in their set up and diets. The only ones I use the mixed calcium with d3 is with my crested geckos.
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 2:11 pm
by Dakota
Rbizzle wrote:I'd say follow the care-sheet and use UVB. Just like any other reptile that is active during the day. A supplement is just that, A SUPPLEMENT(Something to help make up, for anything it's missing from it's main source.) It's not ment to be used as the main source of D3 and can actually be quite harmful if given in incorrect doses. Your BTS may seem healthy with no UVB but over dose of D3 does take time and it's not like your skink can tell you it's happening. One person said not to use the bulb,s because they need to be replaced, this sort of sounds like a lazy excuse to me. What happens when you run out of calcium or powdered d3? It has to be replaced as well. As I said before, with the powder you have to be very careful with your dosage.
What I would suggest is use the UVB and just plain calcium. As any missing d3 can also be made up by a proper diet, as d3 comes in many varieties of foods your skink can eat. This way you can supplement them more naturally with out a chance of over dose, or a sick BTS later on. I personally believe buying Calcium with D3 is just the lazy cheap way. It's always better to buy and provide things separately then to buy the easier cheaper alternative of a premix. It's like buying the cheaper cereal because it comes with a free box of day old milk, when you could have spent a little more and got to choose out of a variety of cereals and got fresh milk! Also with only using the calcium with D3 you are utting all your eggs in one basket and depending on just a supplement(Again no supplement should be used as a main source, heck that'd be like a human living off vitamin pills and never eating proper veggies or fruit.) Sure you can use it, just dont rely on it. If anything maybe use that mixed powder 1-4 times a month max (and then just regular calcium the rest of the time). If you think your skinks diet is not helping keep up with what it may be lacking. But if research is done correctly it shouldn't be lacking anything.
I keep reptiles of all types most are diurnal. And I would never feed calcium with d3 to them, as I take great care in their set up and diets. The only ones I use the mixed calcium with d3 is with my crested geckos.
I'm assuming you haven't read the studies someone did on the Blue-Tongued Skinks whether or not they need it, did you?? Try searching it. But that's your opinion.. I respect it.
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 2:13 pm
by Dakota
Jeff wrote:I don't want to get into another UVB debate, but I will do my best to convey the results of a fairly long term study done by one extremely respected person in the BTS community.
This breeder kept one group of skinks (#1) away from any UVB exposure and supplemented their diet with calcium that included D3.
Another group (#2) was kept with UVB lighting, but given calcium that did not include vitamin D3.
The third group (#3) was given both UVB lighting and calcium that included D3.
The results were as follows:
Group #1 - No health issues at all. Extremely healthy skinks that bred very well.
Group #2 - Some of these skinks seemed normal, and others began developing the first signs of MBD. The breeding rates were much lower. Even the skinks that appeared healthy had smaller litters, and the babies were not as hardy.
Group #3 - These skinks were all healthy and showed no signs of any health issues. They bred well with large healthy litters.
This evidence is of course not ultimately conclusive, but it does support the theory that artificial UVB lighting may not be totally effective for the calcium needs of BTS. It is important to note that this study was done a number of years ago, before mercury vapor bulbs were available. The best bulbs available at the time were used, but they were not MVB.
I don't know if that is very useful to you or not, but personally, I would supplement with a calcium that included D3 regardless of whether or not you provide UVB lighting.
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 2:56 pm
by Rbizzle
What I'm trying to say is D3 can be supplemented many different ways that don't depend on you getting the doses right from a powder. If you spend the money and get the proper foods containing d3 that should supplement it more then enough if using UVB without the need for calcium with d3. And if you are having trouble getting the right amount of d3 from the foods you are able to provide then sure calcium with d3 a few times a month is fine. This is exactly what the care sheet suggests, that you mentioned he read. So I'm a little confused, you are telling him to read the care sheet before posting, but you are also saying the care sheet in incorrect... As it states clearly that he does strongly suggest using UVB lighting, and spending the time to create a proper diet that would supplement any missing d3. Only using the calcium with d3 is you are missing out on something or not providing the proper diet. All it takes is a little more time and money then you don't need the calcium with d3. So basically both the material you gave for him to read is contradicting, so I can understand why he may be confused.
Also with that study there is missing information, what was the complete diet being fed to the BTS at the time? As it was a breeder doing the study I could not see them going to the furthest extent with fresh food items and supplementing the foods correctly with what are considered expensive food products, compared to most of what you'd feed reptiles. A BTS or any reptile for that matter can get all they need from a proper diet and set up with zero supplements, it just depends how much time, care and research you are will to do and keep up with.
So in reality you can go either way, just don't let your BTS over dose on that powder. And if you prefer a more natural intake of D3 do a little research and you will come up with a long list of foods to replace that powder with. But of course always supplement with calcium. And as I said even if doing all the right foods maybe the d3 calcium a few times a month to to be on to of things. Use it as it's meant to be used, as a supplement.
Also one more thing, like I stated before. You may think the skinks are 100% healthy when using that calcium with d3. But over dose can take years to happen and there are no signs or anything to tell you it is happening. As blue tongue skinks have a large fat reserve they are actually quite susceptible to d3 over dose. D3 is a fat-soluble vitamin, so it builds up in body fat. So the only time you will notice something wrong is if you really over dose them at one time. Other wise they will look all healthy and happy, until the day they go off food for a week, get a little sick, ect. Then all that d3 will be released at one time into their system as they begin to use and lose their fat reserve. Creating a overdose. This goes for just about any living creature on this planet, as this is how D3 works. In the end D3 is needed to take care of all the calcium your buddy intakes, so which ever way you go just keep on top of it. Naturally or with a supplement it's your choice. (But I really think some people should look up the definition of a supplement :p). And learn to rely less on it and more on natural means.
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 3:18 pm
by Scotts1au
Thankyou for your speculation. Note to readers - reptiles cannot process vit D from vegetative sources (ergocalciferol). Also most other exogenous sources such as red meat have high P:Ca ratios. I think that as specific claims are being made in this thread - bts being susceptible to Vit D toxicity they need to be backed up.
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 3:22 pm
by hurricanejen
Fact is that many keepers here on the forum keep their skinks without UVB. I've seen skinks kept in rack systems that were doing well. I keep my skinks at home with UVB, and keep the skinks here at the facility with UVB, just as a backup and because I personally feel that as an animal that spends so much of its life in intense sunlight (in the case of northerns) benefits pyschologically, if not physiologically, from receiving UVB.
That's a personal opinion though, and not backed up by studies - that's just how I feel on the matter, and since my skinks and those at work are doing well, I see no reason to stop. Vice versa is also true - keepers without UVB that have success see their skinks doing well on a good diet without UVB, and they see no reason to change.
Again, personally, I recommend that beginners use UVB just to cover their bases. I also recommend this for monitor lizards, an entire FAMILY of lizards that has been shown to thrive without UVB.
The biggest thing is diet; without proper diet, no matter what lighting you use, the animal will not thrive.
-Jen
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 3:31 pm
by Rbizzle
Scotts1au wrote:Thankyou for your speculation. Note to readers - reptiles cannot process vit D from vegetative sources (ergocalciferol). Also most other exogenous sources such as red meat have high P:Ca ratios. I think that as specific claims are being made in this thread - bts being susceptible to Vit D toxicity they need to be backed up.
The main d3 food sources are not in vegetables, a simple search will show you a whole list of high in d3 content foods. Most not being veggies. Do blue tongue skinks have a fat reserve? Yes. Making them just as susceptible to over dose as any other living being. Common knowledge. Do you know specifically how much D3 your blue tongue skink needs? No, that is why going the more natural way is always better as they can control their intake more so then you can with out under dosing them. It's all about diet, and with a proper diet there is no need for supplementing. The natural way is always the better way.
Also ergocalciferol is completely different from what we are talking about. So why would you look up foods that contain D2 when you should be looking for D3 -.-
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 3:38 pm
by hurricanejen
Rbizzle, we're just asking you to back up your own claims. We want to see where you have gotten your information is all. Share what you've found, the studies etc, so we can read them as well.
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 3:51 pm
by Rbizzle
Honestly anything I've argued is pretty much common knowledge/sense. Does god sprinkle calcium and d3 on BTS food naturally? I haven't seen him do it. Does D3 not process through kidney's and instead get's pulled into fat reserves? Yes. Do fat reserves get used when an animal gets sick or does not eat? Yes. Are D2 and D3 two different things? Yes. If new to BTS and not to sure on a proper diet should you use UVB and supplement? Yes. Is a good reason not to use UVB bulbs because they need to be replaced? No. Does the word supplement mean to rely completely on that that one thing or that it is an all around good source? No. Do you know for a fact the amount of D3 you should be supplementing your BTS with? No. So why not be more careful and go natural?
Also again monitors are incredibly hard animals to read or see if anything is wrong with them. I've keep them for years and to be honest I do not use UVB bulbs with my females but I do with my males. That is because alot of females are more active at night and den dwellers during the day, so she must be supplemented. Where as males are usually out and about, so might as well go more natural.
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 3:56 pm
by Rbizzle
So far the only things I've argued are laziness, that natural is better then unnatural, lack of care to do proper research, a guy mixing up his vitamins(Hofully has not been feeding his BTS the wrong things this whole time) and two sources of reading material from one person that contradicts each other. Everything can be done naturally or close to it with minimal supplements with a little bit of care and research, to argue that would be saying you don't understand how any animals are alive in the wild. I guess I should add that I am a nutritionist by trade and taking zoology at the university of BC, soon to go to Guelph that has one of the best programs in North america. Again I could stuff my face with multi vitamins and eat junk food all day, and of course I'm going to live. Or to thrive I could eat properly, go outside and keep myself healthy naturally. It's all about how much you care to take the extra little steps.
In which way is by-passing natural process's a good thing? It's like people that feed multivits that contain vitamin A to reptiles. It's by-passing a major step, as it's not letting the reptile produce it's own vitamin A which also allows it to get rid of any excess. So instead most reptiles are actually overdosed with vitamin A as they cannot get rid of the excess when it's given straight to them, it's better to let them process their own Vit A through beta carotene.
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 4:48 pm
by El Lobo
Rbizzle wrote: I guess I should add that I am a nutritionist by trade and taking zoology at the university of BC, soon to go to Guelph that has one of the best programs in North america.
Given that you already have relevant tertiary qualifications and are studying for even more you will be aware of the need to support any argument with referenced material. That is all that is being requested of you at this point. It would also be helpful if you would outline your background in keeping reptiles with particular emphasis on your experience with BTS. Just labeling everyone who doesn't share your viewpoint as being lazy is not getting you off to a good start amongst the members of this forum.
Re: do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside questi
Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 4:51 pm
by Rbizzle
El Lobo wrote:Rbizzle wrote: I guess I should add that I am a nutritionist by trade and taking zoology at the university of BC, soon to go to Guelph that has one of the best programs in North america.
Given that you already have relevant tertiary qualifications and are studying for even more you will be aware of the need to support any argument with referenced material. That is all that is being requested of you at this point. It would also be helpful if you would outline your background in keeping reptiles with particular emphasis on your experience with BTS. Just labeling everyone who doesn't share your viewpoint as being lazy is not getting you off to a good start amongst the members of this forum.
I called everyone lazy? No. I said the excuse of not using UVB because you have to replace the bulbs is lazy. And again I'm not arguing any studies or opinions, I never said you cannot just use calcium with Vitamin D. What I am saying though is things can be done more naturally. And everything I listed above, I should not have to post studies on. As they are just basic well known facts. Do I have to go through them all again? List one there that is arguable, and I will post you all the information you need. Was it the god sprinkling supplements on food in the wild that is confusing you and need more proof on? As that may be the only arguable one seeing if he did noone would know, or would they?