Fancy feast appetizers?

[honey]

Hi there, Ive been lurking on this forum for a little while now and decided it was about time to post!! My names Honey and I own a six month old northern blue tongue skink named Salsa.

I was wondering if anyone knows about fancy feast appetizers? I tried searching through the forum but all I could find was people talking about the regular cans and the general consensus seems to be that fancy feast aint that great, but the 'appetizers' seem much different from regular cat food. The only ingredients are water, chicken, guar gum, xanthan gum, and sodium nitrite, and the guaranteed analysis is 12% crude protein, .5% crude fat, .5% crude fiber, and 85% moisture. The caresheet said to look for high protein and low fat and I haven't seen anything in stores with protein as high/fat as low as this. Is there such a thing as TOO high or low?
I also read that dog food is better than cat food, but I've been having a hard time finding quality dog food in the stores in my area and this doesn't mention added taurine or anything (though I'm not sure if taurine would always be listed?)

So does this sound like an acceptable source of meat for him? Id also be adding veggies and greens as per the food chart of course. If not, what other brands do you guys use?

[Cathy20]

When I look at cat food labels I see taurine listed in the ingredients list, so I believe it's added into the food during processing. What you're describing has a very low amount of ingredients and no taurine, so I'd say go for it! Seems like it might be the only cat food that may be just as good as dog food!
Of course, I may be completely wrong
But if cat food with taurine is seemingly okay for Blueys to eat, then cat food without taurine is even better, right?

[Dakota]

In my experience, the more expensive the can is, the better ingredients it has.. Almost like when humans want to eat healthy, you have to pay that extra penny, well in USA, that is.

Always check ingredients before buying any can. Also, I learned in Principles of Agriculture, too much protein, the animal can't digest, too less the food goes to waste. It all depends on the animal, and I don't know how much protein a BTS can take in.. maybe a moderator will know.

[Linnea]

all catfood contains taurine, there is a very strict law on it here so i dont see why it would be much different elsewhere when cats are increasingly popular.

however, labels very seldom are proper. so go with dog food. no matter if its high or low brand, as long as there is no addd sugar and little or no fillings like grain or rice, it should be super.

some buy more expensive food, and get more expensive and popular parts of the animal. some buy cheaper to get a mix of everything.
its really up to you.
myself i buy expensive and cheap every other time. so my skinks do not miss out on anything.

[Katrina]

Welcome, Honey!

Wow - lots of half correct advice given...

Short answer - that sounds fine. I wouldn't feed it 100% of the time but you can definitely feed that. Throw in some other things for variety. Organ meat is very healthy and cheap, you can throw some chicken hearts or livers in for variety. Same with chicken meat, egg, beef... if you have access to any feeders, roaches, dew worms, silk worms, horn worms are all excellent for blueys.

Now the long answers...

All cat food has taurine. Cat food is fine in moderation, it's just not recommended as a staple food that would make up the bulk of their diet. BTS can produce taurine unlike cats, so all cat food has to be supplemented with it. No one is really sure what an excess of taurine might do to a bluey but to be on the safe side, if feeding canned pet food as a staple, it is recommended that it is dog food. A dog's diet is also more similar to a blueys than a cat's diet - their food generally has more veggies in it, cat's are obligate carnivores.

The more expensive canned food is generally NOT recommended for blueys. And not all expensive ones are better, lots of pricey ones are more gimmicky than actually healthy, don't go by price when shopping - you'll be wasting your money (for dogs, cats and blueys!). Blueys need the variety of nutrients that whole prey items have. That is why feeding just chicken breast is actually bad - there is very little variety of nutrients in muscle meat. A better source of protein would be the pet foods that have 'chicken by product meal' or similar - that means the meat, the bones, the organs... all of it. This is why feeders are so healthy - they have everything, not just muscle meat. Dogs, cats and blueys need a bit of everything - including bone for calcium and organs for all the other nutrients. Not sure what Dakota is saying about too much protein, I'd disagree with that. A high protein canned food that is low in fillers like corn, grains etc would be great. Some pet foods have lots of fillers, so I'd stick with limited grains - it should be lower on the ingredients list because the ingredients are listed from highest to lowest percentage.

Pet food labels are regulated - so they will have the correct ingredients, listed in the right order. I'm sure you can find out online how much taurine it has in it. There are definitely some cat foods that would be healthier for blueys than dog foods, especially with lots of veggies and greens added.

Hope some of this makes sense. We don't know exactly what the perfect bluey diet is, but based on what we do know the cheaper brands of dog food tend to give just as good of results as expensive ones. If you're feeding just one food, I'd make it pedigree dog food. But variety is great - if you're mixing it up, adding Fancy Feast into the rotation should be just fine. Dog and cat foods tend to have pretty decent calcium content but it is still good to supplement it regularly (especially if you're feeding muscle meat / egg / feeders that aren't well gut loaded etc).

[Spindown]

Taurine is naturally found in several organ meats, but it is possible they add it in as well...

I personally use Pedigree dog food (canned). I would NEVER feed this to my dog, but its great for the blueys!!

There is a great website called http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/ that has a ton of rated (1-6 stars) dog foods, with list of ingredients, and why its rated what it is. Its fantastic!

[saisaac]

I would never feed anything to my dogs or reptiles that doesn't get at least a 4-5 star score on dogfoodanalysis.com
We have a responsibility to feed our pets the highest quality of food we can reasonably provide.

[Bird_Brain]

I would never feed anything to my dogs or reptiles that doesn't get at least a 4-5 star score on dogfoodanalysis.com
We have a responsibility to feed our pets the highest quality of food we can reasonably provide.

We are getting OT, but I disagree with this statement. There are a number of foods with grains that I'd coinsider feeding to my dogs and cats. I know dogs that have been fed lower quality foods their whole life and live longer and have heathier lives that dogs feed premium diets. If someone wants to feed their animals lower quality foods and the animals are thriving on it, by all means go for it! A prime example are farm dogs. From working at vets office and living in a rural area, I'm always surprised how healthy and long lived these dogs are. Most are fed foods that are less than $20 for a 50# bag!

I always encourage people to not only feed the best they can afford, but more importantly what works best for their pets!

[Spindown]

Sorry, I wasnt trying to get off topic. I just thought the link would be helpful b/c it shows the ingredients in the food.
I cant feed grain to my dog because he is allergic to it, but some dogs do ok with it.

[Bird_Brain]

Sorry, I wasnt trying to get off topic. I just thought the link would be helpful b/c it shows the ingredients in the food.
I cant feed grain to my dog because he is allergic to it, but some dogs do ok with it.

No need to be sorry. I refer to that website often. I was always in the mindset that grains are bad. Up until recently, my dogs were on a corn free diet. I decided to switch to Bil-jac mainly due to horrible gas the Frenchie had. They are doing great on it. Better than the wellness they were on previously. Wysong would be another food I'd like to try at some point.

Sorry going even more OT lol.

[saisaac]

I would disagree on a couple of the points made previously, including my own. There are plenty of less expensive foods that are decent and in some instance better than more expensive foods because as Katrina stated previously, many expensive foods are gimmick. However, a discussion of high quality vs low quality foods really isn't off topic here, and I would have to disagree on the feeding low quality foods and having a healthy life.

Why would you take responsibility for another being's life if not to take care of it to the best of your ability? Being cheap or lazy with food sources certainly is not a way to provide a healthy life for a pet. Many of the reptiles that end up dying each year die because they are improperly cared for. Others live for years in horrid conditions because many species are quite hardy and can survive a lot of neglect and abuse. Bluey's, from all that I have read, can certainly survive a lot and are adaptable but that doesn't mean we can ethically place them in circumstances in which they have to eat lower quality diets or live in poor conditions. If you cannot afford to provide your animals with a reasonably good diet and habitat you have no business owning them.

The real problem with cheap dog food is the fact that it often contains a significant amount of fillers such as corn meal and other grains that provide little nutrition to your dog or your reptiles. Another problem with the way many people feed their animals is they feed foods that do not have diverse ingredients for long periods of time which is why many vets recommend feeding foods that can be rotated easily (in other words feeding a brand that has multiple formulas that are all compatible without transition periods) in order to provide your pet a varied diet. Eating the same ingredients every day is a recipe for allergies and other digestive issues.

It is possible for dogs or reptiles to have a full life on low quality food just as humans can live to be 100 years old even though they are chain smokers and/or alcoholics who eat junk food. The fact that some dogs and reptiles live long lives or out live other animals who eat higher quality food does not make it true that feeding low quality food is acceptable. You used the example of farm dogs, I too am from a rural area and know of plenty of farm dogs fed low quality grocery store kibble. Many of these dogs lived full lives. This is likely due to a few reasons: A) Farm dogs often capture some food on their own thus supplementing their nutrition B) Farm dogs get more exercise than your average city dog and C) Luck. Study after study has been released linking low quality kibble to a number of diseases in canines, especially cancer, as well as other health problems including poor skin and coat health and allergies. The same goes for human diets. If you eat a healthier diet statistically you are less like to suffer from a number of disease and will on average live longer, but you may still die at the age of 20 none the less. Speak with any highly qualified vet who has come out of a university recently and I highly doubt they will recommend feeding a cheap dog food. Keep in mind, vets will not go out of their way to tell their clients what to do and generally won't push clients too much because they do not want to offend their patrons.

I have seen this in my family dogs as a youth and my own dogs now as an adult. Growing up in a rural area most of my friends, family, and neighbors have fed low quality foods all their lives to their dogs. A surprising number have died from cancer and many if not most of them had allergy issues that went untreated and unnoticed. We had two German Shepherds growing up. One of them died of cancer when she was only 10 years old. She had been fed your average run of the mill Pedigree or Purina her whole life because, sadly, my parents did not know any reason not too. Our other German Shepherd was also showing signs of health problems including joint issues and allergies. We switched him over to a 3-4 star dog food and his energy and activity levels increased, his mood lifted, his hips seemed to bother him less, and his skin and coat became much healthier. He ended up dying at the age of 14 from a stroke.

I now have two dogs of my own. We have always fed 4-5 star dog food to them. I have read plenty of studies, talked with vets including veterinary researchers, and have known people who have worked in the local Purina plants. Your dogs and skinks can get plenty of micro-nutrients from offal and "by-products" that are included in many high quality dog foods and not be fed the chicken by-products such as beaks, feet, and feathers that are in cheap dog food. For example, one of my dogs is on a diet made by Stella and Chewy's the ingredients in order by volume in his favorite formula (you can rotate through different flavors without transitioning when feeding this diet) are:
Chicken with Ground Bone, Chicken Liver, Chicken Gizzard, Pumpkin Seed, followed by a long list of vegetables and vitamins.

My skink gets fed a mash of veggies from the food chart that I vary based on what is available. To the mash I add one or more protein source most feedings. Some times I feed the scraps from the bottom of my dog food bag, other times I use egg, sometimes I feed some feeder insects, and other times I feed meat if we have any on hand.

I understand that this post is a bit pointed and may come across as angry or judgmental. I do not aim to offend anyone or berate anyone. I do however feel passionate about animal welfare especially for dogs and reptiles who so often are cared for horribly. All the standard minimum care requirements, in my opinion, should be bumped up significantly including the recommended diets.

[Dakota]

Very well put arguement.

[Katrina]

Ok - wow. Saisaac, I appreciate your passion but the 3-4 paragraphs on your dogs was very off topic.

NO ONE on this forum advocates feeding blueys the bare minimum or a low quality diet. This site advocates feeding variety and the healthiest diets that we know - however there isn't a lot of actual research done on blueys so we have to go by common sense, personal experiences etc. If you read what we are recommending, we are NOT trying to cut corners or feed the cheapest possible diet. We do recommend dog food because it is the easiest way for the majority of people to feed a balanced diet - and you're right, too many blueys suffer because of poor diet or just people not knowing better.

Again, I appreciate your passion but I think if you read into the issue more you'll understand that we are all just as passionate about feeding a quality diet to blueys. Your post did come across as judgemental and I don't think that is warranted at all. We have been learning and changing our recommendations for diet in order to advocate the best / easiest diet we know of so that the majority of people can and will keep it up (instead of cutting corners). I think you'll find many members on here have done as much research or more than you into the canned foods we feed our blueys. I only feed grain free and largely raw to my cats and use similar dog foods for my blueys.

If I have time I'll try to dig up some of the old diet threads and discussions on here so you have more of an understanding of what we recommend and why before you judge. A search will yield similar results.

If anyone wants to continue this off topic discussion, please start a new thread. Thanks.

[saisaac]

I do apologize if it sounded like I was implying you were advocating the bare minimum. That is certainly not what I was trying to say. I very much appreciate the information this site and the people affiliated with it provide. My care of my skink is based almost entirely by the BlueTongueSkinks.net Care Sheet.

I did react fairly passionately, but my main concern was the claim:

There are a number of foods with grains that I'd coinsider feeding to my dogs and cats. I know dogs that have been fed lower quality foods their whole life and live longer and have heathier lives that dogs feed premium diets. If someone wants to feed their animals lower quality foods and the animals are thriving on it, by all means go for it! A prime example are farm dogs. From working at vets office and living in a rural area, I'm always surprised how healthy and long lived these dogs are. Most are fed foods that are less than $20 for a 50# bag!

To me such claims advocate feeding diets that are lacking simply because animals are "thriving." I have seen too many instance in my life of animals people claim to be thriving under poor care. This to me is an even bigger concern with reptiles because their care is so complex.

I will drop this discussion unless someone wishes to continue it elsewhere. Thank you.