BLUE TONGUE SKINKS

Since Caipora has been growing up, there's been a kink in his tail that's become more prominent with time. I'm not sure if this is just how he was born or some sort of problem? I know that tail kinks and other problems can be the result of poor diet/supplementation, but I don't know what I could be doing wrong?

He's a 9 month old male and in a 40 gallon wide tank. Hot end 95, cool end 78-80. He has a 10.0 uvb light, but since he's basically burrowed ALL the time, I'm not sure how much it touches him besides when he's out eating his food. His diet until recently has consisted of Merrick canned dog food and various veggies. As of the past month he's been eating veggies along with a meat mix of ground turkey, steak, and a little bit of chicken heart/gizzards n a very tiny bit of chicken liver. (as soon as the mix runs out im replacing the chicken parts with healthier options) Each meal he has supplementation of multivitamin powder and powdered egg shells. about once a week he gets caclium with d-3 instead.

Here's his tail and body.

It wont be because of hiding from uv,if hes grown pretty fast he would need alot of calcium,as fast growth requires that,id be inclined to supplement with it most meals for fast growing juvies,if mbd causing the kink id be thinking lack of supplementation,but dont rule out it being an injury either,little buggers get into awkward positions at times,also the possability it lacked calcium from the start to,eg before u got it,females need calcium for baby formation plus excess so they arent to depleted,apart from small kink he looks in great shape and sounds like he has a good diet,maybe add calcium at more feedings

Deformity could be due to an old shed injury. Sometimes it's hard for the skinks to rid the shed on their tails if husbandry is inadequate, in this case in the hands of the exporter or petshop; therefore, cutting off that areas circulation and causing the injury.

I would think that it's from calcium deficiency.
What are you feeding?

Rush wrote:Deformity could be due to an old shed injury. Sometimes it's hard for the skinks to rid the shed on their tails if husbandry is inadequate, in this case in the hands of the exporter or petshop; therefore, cutting off that areas circulation and causing the injury.

Actually, when I got him, he had a little scab from a bad shed or injury or something and when he shed the first time it came off and was raw skin underneath D: it did heal since though and its actually just a bit before the kink, only visible if you knew it was there since its just a tiny bump now.

Richard.C wrote:It wont be because of hiding from uv,if hes grown pretty fast he would need alot of calcium,as fast growth requires that,id be inclined to supplement with it most meals for fast growing juvies,if mbd causing the kink id be thinking lack of supplementation,but dont rule out it being an injury either,little buggers get into awkward positions at times,also the possability it lacked calcium from the start to,eg before u got it,females need calcium for baby formation plus excess so they arent to depleted,apart from small kink he looks in great shape and sounds like he has a good diet,maybe add calcium at more feedings

Hmm :/ so it could just be how he was born? I put a good amount of calcium into each meal i thought (he gets calcium in every meal), i think if i had to give an estimate itd be every 2-3 tablespoons of food gets about 1/8 teaspoon of powdered egg shells about. I could try adding more though? :/

how much calcium do you recommend per tablespoon of food?

xxmonitorlizardxx wrote:I would think that it's from calcium deficiency.
What are you feeding?

I stated in the original post what his diet is. I also give him the occasional pinky like twice a month at most.

EDIT: C+P for you: His diet until recently has consisted of Merrick canned dog food and various veggies. As of the past month he's been eating veggies along with a meat mix of ground turkey, steak, and a little bit of chicken heart/gizzards n a very tiny bit of chicken liver. (as soon as the mix runs out im replacing the chicken parts with healthier options) Each meal he has supplementation of multivitamin powder and powdered egg shells. about once a week he gets caclium with d-3 instead.

(also read my post above about how much calcium i usually supplement with)

LarissaLurid wrote:

xxmonitorlizardxx wrote:I would think that it's from calcium deficiency.
What are you feeding?

I stated in the original post what his diet is. I also give him the occasional pinky like twice a month at most.

EDIT: C+P for you: His diet until recently has consisted of Merrick canned dog food and various veggies. As of the past month he's been eating veggies along with a meat mix of ground turkey, steak, and a little bit of chicken heart/gizzards n a very tiny bit of chicken liver. (as soon as the mix runs out im replacing the chicken parts with healthier options) Each meal he has supplementation of multivitamin powder and powdered egg shells. about once a week he gets caclium with d-3 instead.

(also read my post above about how much calcium i usually supplement with)

I keep missing the important parts in threads
Often times people who feed mostly human meats (chicken, steak, beef, etc) often times have calcium difficulties. There are several old threads about that.

xxmonitorlizardxx wrote:

LarissaLurid wrote:

xxmonitorlizardxx wrote:I would think that it's from calcium deficiency.
What are you feeding?

I stated in the original post what his diet is. I also give him the occasional pinky like twice a month at most.

EDIT: C+P for you: His diet until recently has consisted of Merrick canned dog food and various veggies. As of the past month he's been eating veggies along with a meat mix of ground turkey, steak, and a little bit of chicken heart/gizzards n a very tiny bit of chicken liver. (as soon as the mix runs out im replacing the chicken parts with healthier options) Each meal he has supplementation of multivitamin powder and powdered egg shells. about once a week he gets caclium with d-3 instead.

(also read my post above about how much calcium i usually supplement with)

I keep missing the important parts in threads
Often times people who feed mostly human meats (chicken, steak, beef, etc) often times have calcium difficulties. There are several old threads about that.

Hm weird. I'm trying to get a good mix of lean meats together, like the ground turkey, I've heard that some bluey owners have had weird experiences with using chicken just recently. But this can't really explain everything, I JUST started this mix exactly a month ago and haven't seen it get any worse since this very short period of time. Before that I fed Merrick dog food and veggies. Plus I always put in powdered egg shells :/ So shouldn't that make up for calcium not there? Should I just start putting more? I do put a good amount compared to the amount of food as it is though, I almost feel like more would be a huge amount.

Oh and I feed him Dubia roaches as well.

It looks like MBD to me as well, just from the way the tail is zigzaging. Sylvia's does the same near the end of her tail. It could be he isn't getting enough D3, perhaps start supplementing more with Cal+D3?

Karen wrote:It looks like MBD to me as well, just from the way the tail is zigzaging. Sylvia's does the same near the end of her tail. It could be he isn't getting enough D3, perhaps start supplementing more with Cal+D3?

Yea I only do it 1-2 times a week right now (d-3, reg calcium every day besides that tho), but I can do that more. Perhaps that will help. I give him quite a good amount when I do, I like cover the food in calcium! X_X We'll if anything I guess more of both and more often with d-3 would hopefully work

I wonder if something in his diet isn't allowing him to absorb the calcium. Are there any other signs of MBD anywhere else? Did you notice a wavy tail when you first got him?

I wouldn't automatically diagnose the kink to be caused by MBD. The probability is that but just as likely it could also be a birth deformity or how restricted its movements were early on.

It also needs to be taken into account that too much calcium in the diet (hypercalcaemia) has the potential to be just as health threatening as too little (hypocalcaemia). Vitamin D and in particular D3 is needed to form calcitrol from the calcium in the diet which is then absorbed into the blood serum and circulated throughout the body, including major organs for vital functions. Whilst hypocalcaemia will generally manifest in the form of the visible MBD, hypercalcaemia is not as obvious but can lead to inter alia, renal disease and a decrease in peristalsis of the GI tract.

The major problem with correcting dietary deficiencies with our cold blooded pets is the amount of time between meals. Warm blooded animals because they eat so frequently can have an imbalance in one meal which can be countered by their next meal. Rather than continually increasing supplementing the natural part of the diet maybe look more towards those food with a better Ca:P ratio which will provide the calcium in a more balanced manner. Younger growing skinks will have a higher need for calcium than a fully grown adult because their skeleton is still forming where as an adult only really needs a maintenance level.

I might not be on the same page as all others when it comes to feeding those animals in my care because I prefer to feed natural fresh foods where ever possible and limit supplements to only that which is essential. I'm not going to be hypocritical though because I do use non-phosphorous calcium with D3 for the Blotchies and I have a supplement program for the parrot. It is essential for the bird as she is a rain forest species with a very high requirement for vitamin A and other vitamins and minerals which cannot be fully met with the natural foods available.

Id maybe not rely on egg shells for calcium supplementation,vitamin d3 is important for the intake of calcium,a slight kink in tails nothing to be to concerned about though,i have a northern male that has that plus kinks on his back,he was like that when i got him and hasnt got worse,doesnt seem to affect him,just looks odd visually

The odd thing is ive grown alot from juvies to adulthood,and i rarely supplement,pretty much feed straifht dogfood diet and dont supply uv lighting,yet havnt had any cases of kinks in tails,signs of mbd ect ect,some of them are over a decade old and never seen natural sunlight,i dont grow them fast,dont push them to be adult by 12 months,mine take a good 4 to 5 years to reach adulthood for more temperate species,i tend to cool them,and around 3 years for northerns and more tropical species,compared to most i starve mine,lol

I think fast growth requires alot of calcium absorption,and slow growing mine saves my bacon there,but in saying that the dogfood i use contains alot of nutrients to

El Lobo wrote:I wouldn't automatically diagnose the kink to be caused by MBD. The probability is that but just as likely it could also be a birth deformity or how restricted its movements were early on.

It also needs to be taken into account that too much calcium in the diet (hypercalcaemia) has the potential to be just as health threatening as too little (hypocalcaemia). Vitamin D and in particular D3 is needed to form calcitrol from the calcium in the diet which is then absorbed into the blood serum and circulated throughout the body, including major organs for vital functions. Whilst hypocalcaemia will generally manifest in the form of the visible MBD, hypercalcaemia is not as obvious but can lead to inter alia, renal disease and a decrease in peristalsis of the GI tract.

The major problem with correcting dietary deficiencies with our cold blooded pets is the amount of time between meals. Warm blooded animals because they eat so frequently can have an imbalance in one meal which can be countered by their next meal. Rather than continually increasing supplementing the natural part of the diet maybe look more towards those food with a better Ca:P ratio which will provide the calcium in a more balanced manner. Younger growing skinks will have a higher need for calcium than a fully grown adult because their skeleton is still forming where as an adult only really needs a maintenance level.

I might not be on the same page as all others when it comes to feeding those animals in my care because I prefer to feed natural fresh foods where ever possible and limit supplements to only that which is essential. I'm not going to be hypocritical though because I do use non-phosphorous calcium with D3 for the Blotchies and I have a supplement program for the parrot. It is essential for the bird as she is a rain forest species with a very high requirement for vitamin A and other vitamins and minerals which cannot be fully met with the natural foods available.

Yea I worried about giving him too much as well, I only added a tiny bit more his last meal because I really don't want to overdue it. I have noticed this kink from a young age, but NO other signs of what symptoms could be MBD or anything unhealthy at all. (the kink has slowly gotten worse over time but not fast or anything crazy, just looks as you see in the pic) Always willing to eat, active, going to the bathroom normally. I don't feed him anything high in oxalates. I try to keep a variety of healthy veggies.

Hm I've been trying to give healthy foods, as I said about what I've fed with first the Merrick dog food, then the meat mix. I feed dubia roaches when he will eat them and a small rat pup every once in a while. Other than that he gets egg about once a month. What would you recommend I could use in the diet to help provide calcium in a more balanced manner as you said?

Richard.C wrote:Id maybe not rely on egg shells for calcium supplementation,vitamin d3 is important for the intake of calcium,a slight kink in tails nothing to be to concerned about though,i have a northern male that has that plus kinks on his back,he was like that when i got him and hasnt got worse,doesnt seem to affect him,just looks odd visually

The odd thing is ive grown alot from juvies to adulthood,and i rarely supplement,pretty much feed straifht dogfood diet and dont supply uv lighting,yet havnt had any cases of kinks in tails,signs of mbd ect ect,some of them are over a decade old and never seen natural sunlight,i dont grow them fast,dont push them to be adult by 12 months,mine take a good 4 to 5 years to reach adulthood for more temperate species,i tend to cool them,and around 3 years for northerns and more tropical species,compared to most i starve mine,lol

I think fast growth requires alot of calcium absorption,and slow growing mine saves my bacon there,but in saying that the dogfood i use contains alot of nutrients to

I know many people use the powdered egg shells, especially with tegus and such. So you mean more often using calcium with d-3 instead of the egg shells? How often would you use it? I only do about 2 times per week.

There are many charts around the net showing the Ca:P of foods but this is probably the best and most comprehensive. It doesn't matter it was compiled for cavies, the information is well researched.

http://www.guinealynx.info/chart_CaP.html

our Ozzys tail was almost in a Z shape from lack of calcium but as he has grown another 4 inchs or so and been on a proper diet it has become less noticeable.