alpine blotch indoor experiment

[Richard.C]

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today the pr of bluemountains alpine blotcheds i brought indoors started a shed cycle,so will keep a close eye on any happenings,my experiment will be on do you really need to wake males earlier for success,ive done it in the past without that,but i think i have a reason why

this could be a slow thread,so bare with me,lol

[Lea]

Even outdoors, I often have a few shed together, it will be interesting to see how this affects their breeding, though. Sometimes I think they must have really finely tuned their body clocks, and no matter how we try to fool them, they still stick to what they'd do in the wild or outdoors.

[Richard.C]

i have a feeling its got to do with temps,if woken and put straight into high temps,the window comes fast,even before a male can shed,but if we wake,give them option of heat and cool it prolongs the period of consistant temps and window shutting down,outdoors my blotchy males are active and feeding long before actual mating attempts,indoors even if woken early they still didnt mate till outdoor ones did,baxkground and over night temps i believe play a role to

[jasjmm27]

are you tracking the dates and temps inside Richard? That would be very helpful for us... Humidity may be interesting as well, but a bit harder to track....

[Richard.C]

yes and no jas, lol,dates yes,havnt been doing temps but good idea to,it varies,us some days they stay resting down cool end,ill try to keep tabs there to

wa western pr im waking male ten days before female like in bluey bible,so will keep tabs there to,lass is still in brumation tub

got the rugosa asperas brumating now to,might keep tabs on that to

[scaredofbees]

Yes, please... keep tabs on the r.asperas

*rubs hands together*

[Richard.C]

bit late in brumating them,kimberley male was still in with them,lol,but they ade brumating as we speak and part of experiment to,havnt brumafed them for a couple of seasons so looking forward to waking them stumpies up,ill start a thread for them to

[Scotts1au]

Hey Richard, they are looking good. With my relatively slim experience on the matter, I've found that indoors the males start producing plugs earlier than when the females are ready when indoors. July is pretty early, I wouldn't expect them to be ready for mating until early November normally (when outdoors), my guess is that the males will peak too early. Taking bets ? :-)

Unlike the rest of us, they get better looking with age

[Richard.C]

so female brought indoors 1st july,shed 22 so 21 days post wake up

male brought indoors 2nd july,shed 22,so 20 days post wake up till shed

hi scott,they certainly do improve with age,lol

in the past,indoors,id wake mine 4 to 6 weeks,usually 6 sometimes 8 weeks after starting brumation,they were group kept in a 7 foot long open top enclosure so apart from basking spot,rest of cage quite cold,even waking in july,they still held out till close to when outdoors ones would commence mating,oct/nov on average

im trying to keep slightly warmer,in a shorter enclosure,so not as cool,females still light from last seasons babies but eating well,not overly active though ,so all i can do is see what happens

may need to bring another pr or 2 indoors,lol,but quietly confident in this pr still

i think its back ground temps and cool night temps still that delay them mating straight after brumation,cutting the need out to wake males early,stimulating the inconsistant weather we are privelidged to here in victoria,especially melbourne,lol,but even highland areas with cold nights still

so messing around with a few things to see what happens,and to hopefully show theres different ways of doing things to,depending on climate ect

kim if you read this,how long after shedding do your males show interest and how long post wake up till shedding

[Jeff]

I was wondering the same thing about Kim's blotched Richard, but he is on vacation right now, and I got the impression that he wouldn't be on the forum until he gets back. That should be another week to 10 days I think.

I would really be nice to know exactly what it is that causes your indoor blotchies to "wait" for the outdoor blotchies to breed. I hope you are able to isolate the cause.

[Richard.C]

jeff i believe that its temps,even basking temp would be lower in a colder room,but more so back ground temps,always suprised me they would follow outdoor temps to,even the stumpies,but i guess looking at the northerns,i do nothing to cycle them either,,room temp fluctuation does it for me and no night heat year round

to throw a spanner into the works,some blotchies bred with a year round basking spot to,but inconsistantly,some curl up down cool end and stayed there,others didnt

i need to invest in a temp gun me thinks

at the moment i have woken a wa western male,but even with a basking spot the bugger seems more inclined to curl up and sleep,so i probably could have woken female at same time to

same with the blotch pr,they are awake,even feeding,but dont appear up to speed,mind u male has shed so see what happens

[Scotts1au]

Hey Jeff, my guess is that using the large enclosures that Richard is talking about, night temps tend to drop to levels where the blueys still recognise the season as being Winter/Early Spring, hence hold out till later to mate. I know at least in plants, hormonal levels vary depending on issues such as photoperiod and a concept known as degree days - I think you will find that a similar approach works in ectothermic animals. That is, it is one thing to have light and temp for part of the day, another to keep it going long enough to support the natural processes such as enzyme activity. Outdoors at least, I find the females tend to mate around the time that they start to eat regularly for example, probably because instinctually they have confidence of the temperature increasing to the point where they can digest food at low risk - probably about the same time that their general activity levels are great enough to support reproductive physiology. At least in Northern Victoria, mating tends to occur when day temps are in the low 20Cs - which occur early November. Although night temps are often well below 10C during this time, soil temperatures a have risen which tends to buffer the nocturnal/diurnal variation, probably enough to keep their physiology ticking over. In Sydney where Colin breeds his, this occurs earlier than Northern Vic (being nearly 1000km North) and on the Mornington Peninsula, later again than in Northern Vic, simply by virtue of latitude (although day lengths etc are virtually the same). Anyway end of rant.

[Richard.C]

spot on scott,

blotchies and stumpies were in a 7 foot long open top enclosure at ground level in an uninsulated tin shed,mating didnt take place till back ground temps during the day were consistantly warmer,i think scotts bang on,around low twenties,from july to september back ground temps average 16 during the day,with fluctuations either way,but they hang out for slightly higher background temps,hence mine follow outdoor temps

spot light is at one end of cage so alot of cool area left,hence some brumated even with light on

at the moment the blotchies are in an enclosed enclosure,3 and a half foot long,in the hope i dont have to wait till november

the males shed so thats a good sign

[Richard.C]

well today shed temp was around 17 degrees celcius in the middle of the day,midnight it had dropped to 14,ill keep tabs,min/max thermometer,so will reset each day

[Richard.C]

last few days temps in shed have been between 12 an 13 degrees

[Richard.C]

today i popped into a shop i sold some juvie blotches to,to see how they are doing,and saw the mother of all blotched blueys,a dullish alpine that was one of the biggest ive seen,wasnt for sale though,its name was sampson"they said male,i had a suspicion possably female

its tail base was a good 2 inchs thick,might go back and ask if i can measure it,get a pic or 2 as well,maybe persuade them to sell it,lol

back on topic,male bluemountains blotch has started showing interest in female,just smelling and following her round

[Richard.C]

captains log,star date 12.august.2012, its been 21 days since this pr shed,the males started following the female about,no copulations witnessed,but hes started doing jerky movements as he investigates her,they still arent fully up to speed though,so will keep watching,garage temps are varying between 9 and 16 degrees celcius last couple of weeks

still deciding if i should bring a couple more inside,maybe the nsw pr

[kl]

Richard, My males shed between 20 to about 24 days after warmup. I warm my animals up gradually at about 70 degrees during day and low to mid 60's at night for about a week. By the end of the second week I get the basking temps up to about 83 to 85. I've noticed females shed much later after warm up. I've had males attempt mating the same day they complete a shed though the females often reject those first attempts.

I'd be interested if these same things will happen when you brumate animals indoors that are use to natural outdoor brumation conditions.



Kim

[Richard.C]

thats why i thought id play around with a pr or 2 kim,the female actually shed with the male,outdoors only the odd female has done that

going against me perhaps is the female isnt overly solid,though she wasnt last season either and had babies,i have a good basking spot,could be warmerthough,but back ground temps are low,and some days they stay cool and curled up,especially the female, the male im using was a yearling i got from scott,he hasnt tried mating before to my knowledge

some of my outdoor ones actually lived indoors,and bred when do do outdoors now,the lass in my avatar bred numerous times,even a cpl of years when i left basking light on,large cage with heat at one end,so they went down to cool end to brumate,but was inconsistant doing that,as a few stayed active

at the moment i think they are following outdoor conditions still,heading down to check on the outdoor ones soon,so might grab a cpl more and mix things up abit to,just to see what happens

[Richard.C]

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brought nsw alpine male in today,will find the female in 10 to 12 days and bring her in to