There's a slight swelling on lip. I'm worried. (Photos)

[Lunaire]

I came home today and found Kupo with a slight swelling on the side of his lip. It was apparent to me as the other side seemed fine.

Should I be worried? I don't know what happened, I didn't notice it this morning.

[Linnea]

from the photos it doesnt look concerning at all. looks normal. around their "lip scales" are always a bit non perfect looking

you should however look inside the mouth for infections when your skink opens his/her mouth to help you be less concerned. do this every now and then when you get the chance.

fatal S has good photos of a bad case of a mouth infection on the inside....look for her posts

good tissue is pink/white.

infected tissue is black, bubbly, yellow, bleeding etc.

[shingleback aus]

from what i can see it just looks like irregular scale formation are u sure it wasnt already there?? if the lump gets bigger or spreads then id go to the vet keep an eye on him im sure kupo will be fine

[Lunaire]

are u sure it wasnt already there??

I'm pretty sure, I looked back at his photos and videos and it wasn't as lumpy as that. That little 'chip' seems a bit bigger too. The photo in my signature is of the same side as that lump, and it is not as apparent.

Thank you very much so far for the replies. I'll keep watch on it.

[Fatal_S]

You are correct, there is an irregular bump there. Being that it's right underneath a bit of mouth-gunk I'd think he'd managed to hurt his mouth a bit and it's possibly infected. Having dealt with a mouth absess and listened to expert advice here, if it is an absess it needs to be drained then medicated.

This is not the same as the mouth infection/rot I posted about. That was a visible infection that caused necrosis to the flesh in and around the mouth. An absess is a *MeStoopid infection under the skin. They can be hard to treat in reptiles (though I had fantastic luck getting Izuru's absess fixed up when she came to me).

A vet is the best way to go for treating an absess. My vet lanced the absess, drained the pus, flushed it out with saline, then gave me both topical and oral antibiotics. The absess was quite a bit larger and I had some optional tests done on the pus, and it came out to just under $300 for a $75 import who'd been housed with another skink.

Am I sure that Kupo has an absess or needs a vet? Nope. I don't know much. Personally I would be inclined to bump up tank temps, and see if I could get that chip off to see if anything drains out from underneath. But there are some great members here who actually have knowledge about skink issues, so wait for them to come chip in. Or if you want to be on the safe side a vet visit is always an option.

[Lunaire]

You are correct, there is an irregular bump there. Being that it's right underneath a bit of mouth-gunk I'd think he'd managed to hurt his mouth a bit and it's possibly infected. Having dealt with a mouth absess and listened to expert advice here, if it is an absess it needs to be drained then medicated.

This is not the same as the mouth infection/rot I posted about. That was a visible infection that caused necrosis to the flesh in and around the mouth. An absess is a *MeStoopid infection under the skin. They can be hard to treat in reptiles (though I had fantastic luck getting Izuru's absess fixed up when she came to me).

A vet is the best way to go for treating an absess. My vet lanced the absess, drained the pus, flushed it out with saline, then gave me both topical and oral antibiotics. The absess was quite a bit larger and I had some optional tests done on the pus, and it came out to just under $300 for a $75 import who'd been housed with another skink.

Am I sure that Kupo has an absess or needs a vet? Nope. I don't know much. Personally I would be inclined to bump up tank temps, and see if I could get that chip off to see if anything drains out from underneath. But there are some great members here who actually have knowledge about skink issues, so wait for them to come chip in. Or if you want to be on the safe side a vet visit is always an option.

Thank you so much for your informative reply. I will be watching him and any sign of craziness I'm bringing him to the vet.

It *seems* to be not as swelled up as before, but I hope my eyes aren't fooling me. We shall see.

[Lunaire]

So I just got back from the vet; and he came in then immediately took Kupo away for a fecal test (without telling me he was going to do one, I was in the room clueless for 10 minutes but oh well) and said that Kupo has parasites. He said that they definitely came with the breeder as I only had him for a month and Kupo had it before I got him.

He said that the internal parasites are the likely cause of the swelling of his jaw and Kupo has been but on antibiotics medication for 7 straight days then 10 alternate days after that to get rid of the parasites. He also suggests soaking Kupo daily for 10-20 minutes in tepid water with a drop of Dawn or Joy (or any other dish detergent) to clean off any parasitics ovas etc that may be on him. (I'm kinda worried about usage of dish detergent.)

What do you guys think? I hope this is definitely the case and will help Kupo's little lip bump heal up.

[Fatal_S]

.....

IMO, the vet is probably an idiot.

Internal parasites live in the guts. They don't really do anything to the mouth, they absorb the nutrients from food so your skink starves even while eating. They would not cause mouth issues or absesses.

Parasites do need to be treated. They are extremely common in reptiles (almost all reptiles have them unless treated, it usually won't hurt unless the animal lives in gross conditions or becomes stressed), and it's possibly the only thing the vet knows about reptiles (top issues in reptiles are internal parasites, mites and respiratory infections; none cause lip swelling).

Good job on going to a vet, and the treatment is a good thing to get rid of the IPs, but I don't think it has anything to do with your actual issue.

EDIT: Wait, what medicine is he on? Antibiotics treat infections. You need an antiparasitic to treat parasites. It's possible your skink could use both (if the mouth bump was infected), but the vet should have prescribed something like Pancur, Fenbendazole, or Ivermectin for the IPs.

[Lunaire]

Hey Fatal, thanks for getting back to me. I appreciate it.

The vet gave me 'Metronidazole' 100mg/ml oral. This is the care notes that came with the invoice:

'Kupo has internal parasites, and this condition is likely causing the swelling of his jaw, potential abscesses in his GI tract, and may be causing other problems. Any parasite infection in a reptile can cause a decrease in appetite and soft, foul-odored feces. (Just FYI, Kupo's poop is not soft or foul-smelling, looks perfectly fine.)

Parasites identified include: Trichomonas, Hexamita and Giardia.

Please follow the instructions for best recovery:

1) Give all medication as directed. As there are many parasites that can be found in reptiles, often multiple courses of medications are required to be able to eliminate these infections. At future rechecks, depending on what is found in his condition, parasite load, etc, we can consider other therapies or diagnostic option.

2) Clean the cage thoroughly and remove all bedding and discard it. Until he is rechecked again for parasites, he will need to be kept on newspaper or paper towel bedding and changed at least weekly, but more important, after each defecation. (I have already disinfected and cleaned everything and there is paper towel bedding as soon as I got home. I read the caresheet before on the no-no with newspaper.) This will prevent him from being reinfected, the most common cause of treatment failure. After treatment is complete, we recommend using rabbit pellets or "Yesterday's News" as bedding as these are safe and easily changed.

3) Soak him at least once daily in shallow tepid water for 20-30 minutes. Add a drop of dish detergent (Dawn, Joy or comparable) to the water so that any parasitic spores/ova will be washed off and thereby lowering the chances of reinfection. (I am afraid to do this, especially everyday. I am afraid of infecting Kupo's mouth injury. )

4) We should recheck his feces 14-21 days after stopping medication.

And just because I'm curious, his weight is 272g and he is about 9 months. Does anyone know whether this is good or bad?

Also, they already gave him one feeding of oral antibiotics today. As parasites need to be treated, do I finish the course of 'Metronidazole' 100mg/ml oral'?

Thanks again.

[Fatal_S]

Definitely finish the treatment. It's also known as Flagyl and I recall it being used for certain parasites That's good. When you said antibiotics I was wondering if he'd given you something like baytril (common antibiotic for infections).

I wouldn't worry about the dish soap causing any harm. I would dry off the lip after the bath though.

I still don't believe that IPs could cause a swollen jaw, but I'm no vet, and the IP stuff he gave you seems alright (not exactly what my vets use, but similar).

Newspaper isn't actually bad, I've used it. The ink nowadays isn't damaging. It's not very pretty or absorbent, but you can use it if you want to.

May I suggest sending a poop sample to Brad (ReptileKing) to verify the vet's findings? He'll also find it interesting (he's odd and likes these things). You could send one right away and then another once the treatment is up.

Wait... the vet took Kupo out of the room for a fecal test? How did he get the sample? Generally you take the poop away to look at, not the lizard... Your vet is weird to me.

[Lunaire]

Whew! Yeah he said antibiotics, and its also listed as antibiotics on both the bottle and invoice. So I thought it was antibiotics.

Okay, I will definitely finish the treatment. I hope that will get rid of all parasites. Should I soak him once a day with a drop of dish soap as requested by the vet too?

I'll be interested in sending a poop sample for sure. I was really uneasy when he ran off with Kupo and I didn't get to see what he was doing to him. He even told me he made Kupo opened his mouth wide and checked his gums etc under bright light. (I wish I saw this.) I didn't even see Kupo poop.

I have no idea how he got the sample. He just suddenly said he did a fecal test because Kupo pooped when he took him to the backroom. It's my first time with this vet, I've never been to a reptile vet before here in Washington. I went to this one because they seemed legit in dealing only with exotics, reptiles and avians.

[Fatal_S]

If you get a fresh sample, double bag it and send it to ReptileKing. When you get a chance ask the vet how they got the sample. I'm assuming something like holding it uncomfortably over a sink might work, or a warm bath (both cause my skinks to poop everywhere).

I don't really have an opinion on the dish soap. Since a vet said so I'd probably go for it.

[El Lobo]

Metronidazole (Flagyl) is an antibiotic often used in conjunction with another such as enrofloxacin to broaden the spectrum when treating a bacterial infection which has not been positively identified. It is usually chosen for its good efficacy against anaerobic bacteria and its ability to pass through the BBB (blood, brain barrier) when treating infections in the central nervous system.

I have to agree it does seem an unusual treatment protocol for internal parasite, unless it is being confused with something like a protozoan. Normally you would anticipate fenbendazole (Panacur) as Fatal mentioned for parasites, although I would be a little cautious with ivermectin, particularly orally on a small animal. Overall though I can't grasp how that swelling would be related to internal parasites, but I'm not a vet.

[Lunaire]

Thanks for the response guys. Currently, his swelling is not going down and I'm not sure what to do. I'm following the vet's instructions, but I feel like I'm just treating parasites, not particularly the initial problem at hand (his lip.)

Edit: The only good news is he is still eating well, and today had a good solid poop. He has not been basking since the vet visit though, probably the stress of whatever the vet did to check on him and it might also be the change in his terrarium surroundings too (paper towels)

[Fatal_S]

Random thinking: Is that little crust still on his lip above the bump? If you could remove that and see if anything drained out you might help the bump. The antibiotic should actually help the lip bump, but abscesses can be hard for the medicine to get to. That's why most vets will lance/drain the abscess first. If that crustie is holding in any pus and you cleared it the antibiotic might have more effect there. If you can expose any of the problem tissue or drain any pus, flush it with salt water.

Remember that antibiotics are perfect for treating infections, even if it was prescribed for something quite different.

[Spindown]

ditch that vet IMMEDIATELY if you can. No vet should take your animal away and not tell you what he is going to do with it, and then charge you for tests while you have no idea what is happening. I cant believe he told you the swelling was for parasites! Not unless he got about a billion mites all jammed inside his lip, and ONLY in his lip.....which would not happen.

If you are in WA, you need to go to Dr. Kamaka. She is in Mount Lake Terrace, but she is the BEST vet in WA and has considerable experience with blueys. PM me for more info, as I use her, and have been to almost every other reptile vet this side of the state!

[Lunaire]

Random thinking: Is that little crust still on his lip above the bump? If you could remove that and see if anything drained out you might help the bump. The antibiotic should actually help the lip bump, but abscesses can be hard for the medicine to get to. That's why most vets will lance/drain the abscess first. If that crustie is holding in any pus and you cleared it the antibiotic might have more effect there. If you can expose any of the problem tissue or drain any pus, flush it with salt water.

Remember that antibiotics are perfect for treating infections, even if it was prescribed for something quite different.

I doesn't look like a crust to me, it's more like a chip indentation? I think that's the best way to describe it. I took more photographs to illustrate what I mean. Basically there is this chip above a couple lip scales that look swollen.

ditch that vet IMMEDIATELY if you can. No vet should take your animal away and not tell you what he is going to do with it, and then charge you for tests while you have no idea what is happening. I cant believe he told you the swelling was for parasites! Not unless he got about a billion mites all jammed inside his lip, and ONLY in his lip.....which would not happen.

If you are in WA, you need to go to Dr. Kamaka. She is in Mount Lake Terrace, but she is the BEST vet in WA and has considerable experience with blueys. PM me for more info, as I use her, and have been to almost every other reptile vet this side of the state!

Thank you so much for your informative PM and the vet referral. I am never going back to that vet again, the experience was uneasy and expensive and also unsatisfactory as I still do not know how to treat Kupo's lip swelling. Thank you again. I will definitely visit Dr. Kamaka in the future.

[Fatal_S]

It looks like he might have bit down on something and bent the scales a bit. I'm a bit out of my depth, but I'd be inclined to see if it improves with a shed. I'd say ask a vet, but you already have antibiotic, so unless the bump sticks around or gets worse I'd personally just keep an eye on it.

[Spindown]

yay! I PM'd you a vet breakdown of my experience with several of the "top" vets in WA as well as my earlier post. I;m sorry about the bump, but I'm sure not sorry to see lots of pics of that cute bluey face!

[Richard.C]

odd it only took 10 mins to get a poop and test it,normally they get back to you with the results as they have many patients to see,i cant see internal parisites causing the lip issue

to me it looks like its bitten something ,northerns are prone to it ive found,may take a while for it to go down

to me your vets diagnosis isnt a diagnosis but a band aid remedy,cant see a cause but noticed some parisites so prescribed drugs for that,they may have done a feacal smear,forced some out to test

'Kupo has internal parasites, and this condition is likely causing the swelling of his jaw, potential abscesses in his GI tract, and may be causing other problems. Any parasite infection in a reptile can cause a decrease in appetite and soft, foul-odored feces. (Just FYI, Kupo's poop is not soft or foul-smelling, looks perfectly fine.)

the above isnt very convincing to me as a diagnosis to the lip issue,internal parisites are likely causing the swelling,potential abscesses in his gi tract and maybe causing other issues ,thats alot of what ifs and maybes at best,more likely a buggered if iknow the cause,but we found parasites in the poop so we will say that

not sure bout the baths with a dash of dishwashing liquid either,dish washing liquid is like a degreaser,its definatly not anti bacterial