Shingleback Love

[anchietae]

Spring has definitely arrived, based on the activity with this pair of Shinglebacks.



About a week ago, I noticed obvious bite marks on the female's shoulders.


The following day, I witnessed the first copulation.





The next day , the young couple was at it again.


Yesterday, I noticed the male had an area where some scales had been damaged. Maybe the female had enough?


Not quite. I witnessed another breeding this afternoon. I didn't want to interrupt them so I didn't take a photo of the event.


Meanwhile, not much going on with these two...


Casey

[WanderingChai]

Wow- great photos...

I hope the best for babies!! You MUST post more pics.

[Jeff]

Very cool Casey! Looks like you should have an exciting July! Not sure why the rugosa are resisting, but I hope they get busy soon. I really hope you stick around and keep us updated on how everything goes!

[anchietae]

Very cool Casey! Looks like you should have an exciting July! Not sure why the rugosa are resisting, but I hope they get busy soon. I really hope you stick around and keep us updated on how everything goes!

Thanks. My thought is that this rugosa pair may be two females.

[Jeff]

Female rugosa are almost non-existent! I know of a number of boys that that would LOVE to meet an eligible female if you are interested. Most of us have been looking for females for years!

[anchietae]

My supposed male rugosa has shown no breeding interest (that I have seen) in the female. Maybe he's just a bit slow? If the rugosa were two males, I would've thought they would show some aggressive behavior towards each other, especially since they've been cycled for breeding. They have been kept together since they were very young, however.

I placed the male aspera with the two rugosa (for observation only) today. I left him in for about 25 minutes and was ready to pull him out quickly if I saw some aggressive or breeding behavior. The "female" rugosa seemed very interested in the presence of this male. She would follow him and pace around. She nudged him gently a couple of times. She crawled over him, something I've never seen her do to her cagemate. Then she would lay in from of him. It really seemed like she was trying to entice him. The male aspera seemed over stimulated and paced back and forth in this foreign cage but would go back to the rugosa female. The male aspera approached the "male" rugosa and it was as if this skink (the rugosa) was just a log in the cage. They paid little attention to each other. Keep in mind the male aspera has been actively breeding and it seems odd that the "male" rugosa would show such indifference to him, a stud male entering his turf. The male rugosa is about 950 grams, the male aspera only 650 grams. Also, the "male" rugosa has what I think is a very long body, something I think would be more indicative of a female.

My thought was the temporary presence of the intruder would get Mr. Lazy into gear. When I put the aspera back in his cage, he seemed very confused and paced in a circle a few times. He looked frantic. I felt really bad. He settled down after a few minutes. I checked on him a couple of hours later and he was breeding with his mate again. He seemed fine.

[Richard.C]

females can try to get males interested like u described casey,so your rugosa could be a pr after all,have u got a full body pic of the 2 rugosa rugosa,s

1 more thing is rugosa subspecies,may cycle at different times,so could be that pr arent quite ready

also sometimes males get along great,ive had up to 3 adult males together and never seen aggression,then sometimes they wont mate in front of you,but do when u dont know,some males leave no scarring on the females either,so always the chance they are doing the business in your absence

[anchietae]

Thanks Richard,

I figured all that you mentioned was a possibility. It doesn't matter. I'm really enjoying them all, regardless.

Casey

[Jeff]

Casey, from what you describe, it does sound like your "female" rugosa is a female. My females do the exact same thing that you saw to entice the males.

If your "male" rugosa is male, it seems like the female would do the same thing with him that she did with the male aspera. Not absolutely for sure, but it sounds like she is ready to breed, so I would expect her to be looking for his attention.

When females have more than one male available, they MAY choose to only breed with one. It is an unlikely possibility, but the female rugosa could be sensing the dominant pheromones of the male asper if they are in the same room, and be holding out for the opportunity to breed with him over the lug she lives with. It is hard to believe that she would choose a male of a different sub-species over her own, but animals can be weird at times.

Are your rugosa unrelated? I know sometimes animals are programmed to seek out partners that are the most genetically diverse from themselves. With shinglebbacks though, they seem to prefer mates that look the most like themselves. I have heard that from multiple sources, annd that is what happened for me as well.

The two scenarios that seem most likely to me are that, either the rugosa are breeding while you are not looking, and therefore the female isn't looking for more (she may be getting all she wants already), or it is possible that you have two females. Of course it is also possible that you have a pair that just isn't in the mood right now. If that''s the case, there is still a good chance that they will get there.

I would love to see some full body shots too, along with the age, weights, etc. of your shinglebacks. 950 grams is HUGE for a rugosa! My biggest is around 700!

[Katrina]

Wow - how incredible lucky! 1.1 that are breeding and another 1.1 that might actually be 0.2. Hopefully they are just breeding when you aren't watching.

Great photos and good luck with them! How young are all these guys? Really enviable collection, congratulations those guys are just beautiful.

[Linnea]

such pretty shingles

i really look forward to hearing updates in a few months

[anchietae]

Thanks for all the input. It helps to further confuse me!
The rugosa are three years old. The aspera are five.

The "Pair"...



The "female", weighing in at 909 grams! She's a lightweight. The female aspera is over 1000 grams!



Another photo of "her".


And "him", weighing in also at 900 grams.


I can get some better shots later. I'm fairly confident about the female. Supposedly, the hemipenal vein was seen on the male as a juvenile. Based on how they twist when held upside-down, I can't bring myself to "pop" them to verify.

[Jeff]

Both of them look fantastic! Those are some healthy tails! I hope they are a pair. Most shingleback keepers tell me that rugosa are much easier to sex visually thhan aspera, but I have never been very good at it. I have two that look one way, and two that look like the other gender. The problem is the two that look one way are a pair, and the two that look the other way are a pair.

I have heard from a few people that shinglebacks simply won't breed until they are at least 3 years old. I am trying to prove that wrong, but my males, which were born in 2008, showed no interest in breeding until last year. It is possible that your pair is just not quite mature enough yet. I know that size is generally the determining factor with reptiles rather than age, but I still can't argue with the 3 year claim because I have never yet heard of any shingleback breeding before they were at least 3 years old.

Richard, with all the stumpies you have had, have you ever had any breed pre-three years old?

[anchietae]

Thanks Jeff! It did cross my mind that the male was too young, despite his size. And they will be three this summer so they are indeed young. The female acts like she is ready now, however! I guess she will have to wait because Mr. Stud aspera is staying with his Shinglebelly lady. No crosses here.

[anchietae]

Wow- great photos...

I hope the best for babies!! You MUST post more pics.

Wow - how incredible lucky! 1.1 that are breeding and another 1.1 that might actually be 0.2. Hopefully they are just breeding when you aren't watching.

Great photos and good luck with them! How young are all these guys? Really enviable collection, congratulations those guys are just beautiful.

such pretty shingles

i really look forward to hearing updates in a few months

Thank you! I will be sure to keep everyone updated!

Casey

[Jeff]

Just one more question, do you know the locales for any of your shinglebacks? I have heard that the darker, more black color like your female appears to have can indicate a "hills", or "goldfield" locale, whereas the more "brown" color is more likely to be from the coastal area. I don't think that would affect mating compatibility, I'm just always interested in locales. It is great when they are known.

[anchietae]

No sorry. No locality information on them at all. They are all verifiably captive-born so it's possible their parents could be from different localities, just like me.

[Richard.C]

none of mine had babies young jeff,only my really old lass had babies and she was well into her teens when she started,i dont grow mine fast,so probably not big enough at 3 ,though did have a large asper lass i raised as a juvie get mated at 2 years of age by the old male,but she didnt have any bubs,though the old lass who was covered by same male did

i cant see why they cant have baies before 3 years of age though,if big enough,the main hurdle would be having a compatible pr i think,

casey,those rugosa,s look pairish to me,and size wise are large enough,rugosa,s are normally lighter in weight than aspera,but depends on locale,some asperas are quite small,the ones i have are tiny compared to some other locales

[anchietae]

Thanks Richard. I was fairly convinced they were a pair but with Shinglebacks, as you know, often times one doesn't know for sure until they see breeding or a baby. Maybe next year the male will come around? I see this with young pythons all the time. Some young males need more time. Casey

[Jeff]

I agree Richard. I don't see any reason why a young shingleback that is big enough couldn't breed, but it seems to be a pretty common belief. Even people who doubt it like you and me, can't disprove it!

I am trying my hardest though. If it IS possible for them to successfully breed under three, I plan to do it.