Wanted Opinions

[NennaMeerkat]

Recently I got into a conversation on another website about BTS and someone that I consider pretty durn knowledgeable about reptiles in general posted this in response about the feeding of my guy dog food. Just wanted to know if they are on base, off base, or whatever. I know there are plenty more knowledgeable people here and with loads of experience with just the BTS species instead of a general knowledge.

Both wet and dry dog foods are pretty devoid of calcium when it comes to meeting the needs of a growing BTS, or even an adult. They should always be supplemented when given and BTS fed canned dog or cat food should be 100% healthy, grown, and in the care of someone who can recognize problems at their earlier + has the experience to fix it. Only high quality foods should be given. Cheap dog and cat foods are bad for dogs and cats, let alone the animal they were made for. Low quality canned foods should be considered junk foods to be used with caution. High quality foods should be supplemented just as regularly as all others and should be a part of a protein rotation for a varied diet. High quality cat foods are the best choice here as they have a higher protein content in comparison to dog food, which is largely vegetables. No one food is the best and a variety is needed to get the best growth from young and maintain the highest health for adults.

Not all breeders have their heads screwed on right nutrition wise. The need for variety and high quality is a new frontier in these herps that have been kept since the 70s and 80s so a lot of mixed information is out there. The person I got my northern from was feeding him a purely carnivorous diet, and they produced him themselves.

[Fatal_S]

It's possible he got that information from here only a few years ago. Our understanding of skink-diet has changed a lot in the past few years. Previously we preached dog/cat food and supplements were bad, while human foods (esp. cooked chicken) and variety were key. Then the skinks fed on those diets started showing MBD (mine were a severe case since my diet had mostly cooked chicken for meat). We looked into it, and realized the calcium in human foods tends to suck, whereas dog/cat food is pre-balanced with a decent calcium ratio. So several people did some research, old-hats were asked for opinions we'd previously ignored, etc. Now we're finding it safer to recommend dog food with mixed veggies, fruits as treats, and supplements (esp. calcium) to be sure the skinks will grow strong. This diet has worked for many old-hats for years upon years upon years. Our opinion on the forum may still change though, since we're always thinking and evolving. It's part of what makes this forum so bloody amazing

[Blucas]

How does cat or dog food compare to live foods?

[Linnea]

live food as in which?

crickets dont stand a chance, should be noted my BTS grew up eating them and zophobas though.
grasshoppers - same category as crickets.

zophobas - good BTS candy. My skink loves them. needs rich supplement.

dubias, if gut loaded and supplemented, i hear they can be quite okay. id still feed dog and catfood occasionally.

mice(should not be fed live) - if pinkeys they are too fat IMO, if medium sized mouse its a bit large for a small BTS, as an adult however i know many people give them mice every now and then, and thats just fine. its just that its harder to make them eat their veggies then, and since they actually dont hunt but eat dead animals in nature, giving them a whole mouse too often is to me a bit unnatural....so id still feed dog and cat food and give mice on special occasions.

snails - very good bts snack, good protein and calcium source. im not sure if they would do just as well on these as on cat and dog food, so cant answer that for you.

[Jeff]

I disagree with much of what was written, but I don't think that advice would cause harm to a BTS. The one thing that confuses me is the reasoning for recommending cat food over dog food. Cats are carnivorous, while dogs are much more omnivorous. That is why there are more vegetables in dog food. BTS are omnivours, so the vegetable content in dog food is a GOOD thing.

[acanthurus]

I have fed a diet of dog food for years without any problems. I did try minced kangaroo for a while but stopped as I couldn't see any added benefit and the prepared food is much easier. As far as calcium goes, it does not matter which you feed as they are all poor sources of dietary calcium, especially for bluetongues.

With MBD, to think of it as being caused by calcium deficiency alone is missing the whole picture. Low dietary calcium, low vitamin D, low dietary magnesium, incorrect dietary calcium to phosphorus ratio, or increased urinary excretion of calcium/magnesium due to metabolic acidosis or excess sodium are a few potential factors for development of MBD. Meat (both high quality and that from organs) has a low calcium to phosphorus ratio, which is more important than the calcium content alone. High protein diets also tend to acidify the urine which can cause increased calcium loss. This also goes for live foods - most of which have a very high in phosphorus to calcium ratio (exceptions being silkmoths and whole vertabrates such as weaner mice). Spinach, although high in both calcium and magnesium, is also high in oxalate which acts to bind calcium reducing its absorption from the gut. Excess calcium, for example through over use of supplements, has its own problems.

I know we as keepers may enjoy the benefits of increasing the protein content in the diet, including increased growth and better feeding response, however the downsides to this must always be kept in mind. If a person is low in calcium they are instructed to eat foods that are high in calcium such as dairy products, legumes, bok choy, broccoli etc. Similar advice can be given when looking at diet for bluetongues/shingles, and it is important to remember what they have evolved to eat, i.e. a large amount of vegetable matter, supplemented with a small amount of protein. Whilst supplements may have a role to play, they should not be used an alternative to a healthy diet.

[Blucas]

live food as in which?

crickets dont stand a chance, should be noted my BTS grew up eating them and zophobas though.
grasshoppers - same category as crickets.

zophobas - good BTS candy. My skink loves them. needs rich supplement.

dubias, if gut loaded and supplemented, i hear they can be quite okay. id still feed dog and catfood occasionally.

mice(should not be fed live) - if pinkeys they are too fat IMO, if medium sized mouse its a bit large for a small BTS, as an adult however i know many people give them mice every now and then, and thats just fine. its just that its harder to make them eat their veggies then, and since they actually dont hunt but eat dead animals in nature, giving them a whole mouse too often is to me a bit unnatural....so id still feed dog and cat food and give mice on special occasions.

snails - very good bts snack, good protein and calcium source. im not sure if they would do just as well on these as on cat and dog food, so cant answer that for you.

Thanks for the answer. I meant a general variety of live food as the main protein source in the diet. Gonzo's current diet is manly gutloaded/dusted crickets and locusts, along with greens etc. I've got snails which I'll hopefully be breeding as a food source in future, but he doesn't currently get any cat or dog food, and as far as I know he hasn't been fed it by any previous owners either. Obviously I want the best diet possibly for him, but I was under the impression that livefood was better than prepared stuff.

[Linnea]

variety is the key. feeding gut loaded insects sometimes and dogfood other times is probably the best : ) i buy insects sparingly as i am at a risk of being caught by my parents......but will make sure to breed dubias for my BTS later. The reason of my distrust for crickets is that the types sold here definitely isnt nutricious enough to be part of their main diet, but i am not very certain it is the same as you have in store, thus the nutritional value differ greatly.

processed food can sometimes be bad, but dogfood here is checked properly before sold. i cannot say for sure about the dogfood brands you are used to seeing.
usually they just mash down different rests of an animal in a can, so its a mix of nutricious parts of the animals that i dont think you eat in USA or Canada.
like tongue, liver, feet, stomach, cartilage, skin and 4-20% pure meat. In any case, i think its great. but i also feed some of the meat, liver, egg, and stuff that i eat to him on occasion, with calcium powder.

[Katrina]

Locust or grasshoppers are much better than crickets from what I understand. Not the same. Roaches and snails are excellent too.

Live feeders are just more work than dog food, which is why most of us would recommend dog food over them. But if you have the means / desire to feed lots of roaches, locust, snails and can gut load them well then that is great too. Snails will be an excellent addition.

[NennaMeerkat]

Thanks for all your opinions and I have made my final decision on the matter overall. I think I am gonna feed high quality high protein dog food mixed in with his veggies. Not only will I ensure his veggies are eaten but I can be sure he is getting the protein and calcium he needs. In fact tonight I bought the most expensive wet dog food I could tonight. First 3 ingredients are turkey, chicken, and lamb. After that it is rice. So I am happy with it. Everything else was like "meat product" which I know that basically means meat leftovers...tongue and liver and whatever else.

Thanks guys!

[Linnea]

dont forget that the leftover products are actually great from a nutritional value point of view xD (much greater than pure meat, thats why they are eaten by people in europe and not thrown away) that was the point i tried to get to, but i noticed i didnt mention it.

[El Lobo]

I have fed a diet of dog food for years without any problems. I did try minced kangaroo for a while but stopped as I couldn't see any added benefit and the prepared food is much easier. As far as calcium goes, it does not matter which you feed as they are all poor sources of dietary calcium, especially for bluetongues.

With MBD, to think of it as being caused by calcium deficiency alone is missing the whole picture. Low dietary calcium, low vitamin D, low dietary magnesium, incorrect dietary calcium to phosphorus ratio, or increased urinary excretion of calcium/magnesium due to metabolic acidosis or excess sodium are a few potential factors for development of MBD. Meat (both high quality and that from organs) has a low calcium to phosphorus ratio, which is more important than the calcium content alone. High protein diets also tend to acidify the urine which can cause increased calcium loss. This also goes for live foods - most of which have a very high in phosphorus to calcium ratio (exceptions being silkmoths and whole vertabrates such as weaner mice). Spinach, although high in both calcium and magnesium, is also high in oxalate which acts to bind calcium reducing its absorption from the gut. Excess calcium, for example through over use of supplements, has its own problems.

I know we as keepers may enjoy the benefits of increasing the protein content in the diet, including increased growth and better feeding response, however the downsides to this must always be kept in mind. If a person is low in calcium they are instructed to eat foods that are high in calcium such as dairy products, legumes, bok choy, broccoli etc. Similar advice can be given when looking at diet for bluetongues/shingles, and it is important to remember what they have evolved to eat, i.e. a large amount of vegetable matter, supplemented with a small amount of protein. Whilst supplements may have a role to play, they should not be used an alternative to a healthy diet.

Excellent post.

I'm pleased to see reference to often overlooked parts of the diet such as magnesium and oxalates. Consideration should also be given to the possibility of inducing renal problems by overfeeding high oxalates, potentially forming crystals within the urinary tract. Acid (oxalic) + metal (calcium) = salt (a crystal).