Joey's husbandry

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Joey's husbandry

Postby Susann » Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:51 pm

I haven't mentioned this before because I haven't wanted it to be true :? but every time I do an update here, Joey takes a turn for the worse.
This time; no exception.
Now don't get me wrong, I don't believe this is bad karma or whatever, just a coincidence that I have noticed but chosen to ignore.

As soon as I noticed signs of going downhill (I saw eyes starting to turn red, energy going down, and a lot of shallow breathing) I took him to the exotic vet that we see.
No URI signs. Joey got his Calcium and D3 shot (the vet is seriously confusing me as to what shots Joey has received in the past!)--this time no noticeable improvement, and we're going steady downhill.
Poor energy, poor appetite, eyes looking puffier and puffier.

I called and talked to my "regular" vet, whom I know very well (hubby thinks we alone have paid for this guy's pool :roll: ). He doesn't specialize in exotics, but I know without a doubt that he sincerely cares, and instead of thinking he already knows all that is to be known (that I fear sometimes the exotic vet does) he actually is willing to put in time to study and get in touch with the resources that are available to him.

He did so this time as well. The answer he got was, that in 90+% of cases of sick reptiles, where the cause is seemingly unknown and everything else has been ruled out, the cause is in husbandry.

As I said in my last update, one of my Meraukes was starting to have some toe-issues similar to Joey's. I still think it was a case of shed-constriction (I was out of the country for most of the summer and the babies shed a couple of times while I was gone), but you can imagine with all the trouble Joey has been through, I tend to be overly vigilant. And a bit paranoid.

I have listed all of our practices and habits before, but wish to do it again, so that some of you who have done this for so much longer than I could perhaps catch something that I could change. BEFORE someone else starts to get sick.

Let's assume the problems lie in husbandry.
I will list the "normal" tanks and BTS first, and they are the same as I was doing with Joey before he got sick.

Tank: 36 x 18 until recently when the Merauke babies got their Showcase front-open "coffins" that are 60 x 24.
Substrate: Repti Bark.
Hides: Basket and log, will put in two raised tiles, one on either side in both tanks when glue has cured.
Water: Big shallow glass bowl for water, use only distilled water as the town we live in adds fluoride in the drinking-water.
Temps: Have an under-tank heating pad, a UVB lamp and a ceramic heat lamp, all on the same side, and full-spectrum fluorescents that run the length of the tank. Measuring with a temp-gun: 82-85 on the cool side with the water bowl, progressively warmer up to 96-98 on warm side with 105-107 on basking spot.
The heat pad under tank stays on 24/7, lights are on 12 hrs in summer, about 9 hrs in winter.

Food: I buy all the vegetables and greens listed as good on the food chart on the Caresheet, get ground beef and ground turkey that I boil, mix all together, add moist dog food, usually Blue Buffalo with just three ingredients or Wellness 95% meat.
I add multi vitamin and calcium powder.
This makes a huge batch, that I then press into ice cube trays and freeze, wrap frozen food individually and thaw one portion for each skink 2-3 times a week.
Just to rule it out as a cause, I have served only fresh food for a long period of to rule out something from the freezing. As expected, there was no change.

JOEY
When he got sick and was rubbing his eyes to where he had rubbed chunks of eyelids off, I put him in a small tank so he couldn't lie on the cool side--which he always would in the big tank, and removed everything except a smooth glass bowl for water.

I bought a couple of woven "rugs" to put on the bottom of the tank, and a ton of white towels and washcloths for "substrate". I would wash them all with detergent and bleach and then boil them for a minimum of 10 min to remove any residual detergent, and kill any possible residual germs.

He is offered the same food as the other two. When he goes through longer periods of time (a couple of weeks usually) of not eating, I offer unsweetened applesauce, because I know I can usually entice him to at least lick at it a few times.

Under-tank heating pad, UVB light and ceramic heat lamp. 80 degrees on cool side, 100 on warm. Under-tank pad is on 24/7, and when he is worse I will leave the ceramic on at night to keep temps up.

I give Joey a bath at least once a week when he is sick. If he eats at all he then doesn't move enough to stimulate a bowel movement, so the warm water helps with that. He also doesn't drink as far as I can tell, so when he gets in the tub he usually drinks for quite a while.

What else?
Humidity: usually right around 30% in all three tanks. Maybe because we have a humidifier hooked up to the furnace because of our wood floors. But I try to spray Joey a couple times a week anyway, he just feels so "dry" and with him not drinking... The Meraukes I generally only spray when I notice a shed coming on.

Sorry this is so long, and I also apologize for having to do this over and over again. But I do know many of you out there care, and I hope you don't mind me trying to pick your brains yet again.
I know many want to help, and I hope YOU know how much it is appreciated.

Thank you.
Last edited by Susann on Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Katrina » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:21 pm

Susann - :hug:

I am so sorry to read this. I know exactly how you feel, I see so many similarities between us and the situations.

I don't remember Joey's history - how old was he when you got him? Was he sick at the time?

Joey and Nemo are very, very similar cases. Nemo would always look ok and then relapse. I took him back to the vet so many times and we tried so many drugs. I remember Andrew Seike once told me that he had imports with similar problems - obviously he didn't put the same kind of effort into trying to solve the problems as we do, but he said those imports never lasted more than a year or two for him.

I didn't ever figure out what was the problem for Nemo, but we did *think* it was likely a resident infection that was never eliminated. I am not sure if this is a possibility for Joey, but maybe speak to the vet about the possibility of an infection that wasn't eliminated? Maybe a longer course of antibiotics? This is what Scott thought may have been the problem for Nemo, and Scott was invaluable through the whole ordeal. Leabilby was also a wonderful resource for me.

I'm not sure what else to say except that I am hoping things work out for you. I have information on everything we tried with Nemo if it will help. I am really, really hoping for you. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help!
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Postby Fatal_S » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:21 pm

I'm not nearly an expert, but I'll note things that come to mind.
Allergies? To detergent, fabrics, food? Something else you use in the house?
30% humidity sounds low to me, but I can't see that causing the issues.
Have you tried heating the entire tank, so they can't cool down? I've heard it recommended once, like a forced-fever, but I don't personally know much about it. When my Merauke had an RI I heated the whole tank to 90+ with heat-cable, 24/7, in addition to the medicine (I was terrified of losing another Merauke, I've had terrible luck with them).

Again, I'm pretty much a newbie when it comes to health issues, so hopefully the more knowledgable will pop in soon.

I'm sending you and Joey all my love, with hugs and well-wishes.
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Postby Susann » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:38 am

Katrina wrote:I don't remember Joey's history - how old was he when you got him? Was he sick at the time?

I am not sure if this is a possibility for Joey, but maybe speak to the vet about the possibility of an infection that wasn't eliminated?


I got Joey 18 mos ago, he was 7 mos old at the time. I hesitate a little bit to tell you that I got him from Zach and Holly, because I don't want anyone even for a second thinking that this came from them! There's only one thing I know with 100,000% certainty about Joey's sickness, and that is that this started 3 mos after we got him, and has NOTHING to do with any prior care. He was the picture of healthy BTS when we got him.
Image
Image Image
And SOOO CUTE!!!
Every little toe was perfectly intact, and no other baby of theirs has ever had anything like this.

I have thought myself that it could be an infection that just hasn't been treated completely. El Lobo brought up the possibility of a MRSA, which in effect is an infection resistant to antibiotics.
The problem I have is; the vet who specializes in reptiles is not good at listening to questions and certainly not to suggestions, the vet who IS good at that, doesn't know enough about treating reptiles. As if this situation isn't frustrating enough as it is!

Fatal_S wrote:Allergies? To detergent, fabrics, food? Something else you use in the house?
30% humidity sounds low to me, but I can't see that causing the issues.
Have you tried heating the entire tank, so they can't cool down?


Yeah. Allergies. Lightchii brought that up. Has anyone heard of a reptile being allergic? I will bring that up next time I go in, maybe you can give a reptile an antihistamine...? Other than the mold that we found and eliminated right before he suddenly got better time before last, there isn't anything obvious that I can think of. He was in a completely "normal" set-up untill he started rubbing his eyes OFF.
Image
Maybe preservatives in canned dog food?

Is 30% humidity low for an IJ? Is raising the humidity good when they're sick?
I know raising the temperature is. And yes, in the past, when he's been doing poorly I have raised the temps and heated the whole area so he can't go to a cooler side. This is when I generally have him in a 10 gallon tank with a ceramic heat lamp on 24/7, right in my bedroom to keep an eye on him.

Thank you for the suggestions so far! Please keep them coming. ANY thought or idea is welcome and will be brought up with a vet--whether they listen or not. :wall:
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Postby Nae » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:29 am

Keeping in mind I dont actually know the affects of stuff such as pine oils, but could he possibly be allergic to something like a plant or the wood a certain table is made from? I found a list of plants reptiles can apparently be allergic to, I dont know if its accurate but if you do have any of the plants/ anything made from them, it would be worth a try removing them -

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm ... 3&aid=1612

I know ferrets can develop an allergy from certain cloth washing powders, it could be the same for him? Like the detergent you use to wash his bowls, whatever you use to clean your freezer/oven if you do that to your substrate before putting it in the enclosure etc.

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Postby Coomassie » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:00 am

The first thing that comes to my mind is allergies as well. Have they ever tried a steroid treatment on Joey? Also, when you use towels and stuff for his enclosure, what type of detergent do you use? I ask because some are more problematic than others. The recommendation for people who are allergic to detergents is to wash a cycle with detergent and then wash a second cycle on hot WITHOUT the detergent.

Other things that come to mind are what is going on outside the tank? If you have an immuno-compromised animal or a very allergic animal (Yes! reptiles can have allergies too) chances are something in the air is making him sick. I would actually think about getting your air/ventilation tested for stuff like molds and fungi.

Also, you can take it or leave it but I have a suggestion for Joey. He isn't feeling well, not eating, etc. Try bathing him, everyday, in a dilute solution of warm water, distilled white vinegar, and pedilyte. The vinegar is an anti-biotic and the pedilyte will help stimulate him to eat and rehydrate him. I can't say it will solve or even help the problem but I've seen it bring a lot of reptiles back from the edge.

I really really hope someone can figure out what is going on with him.
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Postby Katrina » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:18 am

For the allergies - we were concerned about that for Nemo, either allergies or autoimmune. We had him on Optimmune eye drops but they didn't help at. I know Nemo and Joey may have entirely different problems but thought it might be worth mentioning.

For allergy concerns for Nemo - have no other pets other than BTS, do not use any harsh detergents, I cleaned his enclosure with soap and water or else a bleach solution, had him on paper towel, our house is new so low risk of fungus / mold. I'm not sure how relevant it is to Joey's case, but allergies and autoimmune were a possibility we looked at with Nemo.
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Postby Susann » Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:21 pm

Nae wrote:Keeping in mind I dont actually know the affects of stuff such as pine oils, but could he possibly be allergic to something like a plant or the wood a certain table is made from?
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm ... 3&aid=1612

I know ferrets can develop an allergy from certain cloth washing powders, it could be the same for him? Like the detergent you use to wash his bowls, whatever you use to clean your freezer/oven if you do that to your substrate before putting it in the enclosure etc.

I don't think it's a plant or a table, because he never comes into contact with the plants in the house, and any table he would be on is not raw wood, it's been lacquered or something, and even then, I don't have anything that's so new that it could be giving off fumes, you know?

And as far as detergents, I can see how that could be an issue, and I've taken great care to make sure everything is rinsed off super well, and, his sickness started long before I started using towels for substrate. But I will be more vigilant.

Since he doesn't have substrate, the oven-cleaner thought is non relevant. His water bowl I just use a tiny amount of dish soap and rinse that super well too, but I will do better. Maybe even not use anything but water from now on and give him his own dishbrush. Good idea!

Coomassie wrote:Also, you can take it or leave it but I have a suggestion for Joey. He isn't feeling well, not eating, etc. Try bathing him, everyday, in a dilute solution of warm water, distilled white vinegar, and pedilyte. The vinegar is an anti-biotic and the pedilyte will help stimulate him to eat and rehydrate him. I can't say it will solve or even help the problem but I've seen it bring a lot of reptiles back from the edge.

Tell me more. What kind of ratios are we talking here?

Lightchii wrote:Everyone has pretty much said everything about allergies already, but getting rid of rugs and curtains is a tip. they collect a lot of things that cannot be washed out. its healthy for people in the house as well.

do you use an air cleaner? they contain dangerous particles to lungs ( and yet theyre not banned from use anywhere....)

As far as allergy to say dust mites, I'm going to assume that Zach has carpet in his house as well, and Joey did live there for the first 7 mos of his life. I know in Sweden it is much more common to have rugs instead of wall-to-wall carpet, and those you COULD get rid of, but I am very sad to say, that if he is allergic to the dust or particles in carpet or drapes, I can't renovate my whole house. :(

No, I don't use an air cleaner, just a filter in the furnace/AC unit

It sounds like I'm shooting down just about every suggestion brought up, but I'm not really! I appreciate every idea brought up. I am giving my thoughts in response to them, but believe me, it gives me lots of ideas and things to try.
I am going to wash his rugs and towels an extra time on hot without any detergents or bleach. I am also going to put Joey in my room from now on whenever I clean the loft he's in. I can't remove the carpet, but I CAN minimize Joey's exposure to excess dust and particles flying around.
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Postby Katrina » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:28 pm

I split the water discussion into its own thread so we can continue discussing Joey here. :)

The water discussion can be found: http://bluetongueskinks.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18786
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Postby Susann » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:28 pm

Lightchii asked how Joey was doing, but that ended up in the water discussion when I asked it to be separated from here :lol:

I was really enjoying all the points brought up, the discussion, and education on WATER, and didn't want it to end if someone had more to add, so I thought it better to make that a separate thread.
But some of the posts can seem a bit off now that it is two separate threads, but I think we can handle it. :wink:

So I took Joey back to the vet today. He was not improving at all since the vet-vivsit last week, and I was getting kind of mixed information as to what shots Joey had, or hadn't, received the last two or three times. So I decided to have another check-up and do some info-gathering at the same time.

Two times ago --I want to say it was back in March, Joey received three shots. I SWEAR the vet said one was Vitamin A, one was antibiotic, and one was a steroid. El Lobo questioned this as an antibiotic and a steroid would be counter-productive. Sure enough! I asked the nurse to look up what shots exactly Joey had received this year. In March (right after we found, and had removed, mold in our home) Joey got a Vit-A, a calcium with D3, and a Ceftazidime shot.

I saw the biggest improvement ever in Joey after that. The improvement was pretty immediate.
But. We had also just removed Joey's tank from the basement where mold was found, so I really did not feel confident that it was the shots alone.

Right before I left to be out of the country for the better part of the summer, Joey had started to get the first signs of inflammation returning, so I took him to the vet; got Vit-A, calcium with D3, and a shot of Baytril this time.
Joey was GREAT the WHOLE time I was gone, he even ate well!

So now we are at the visit last week. Joey got only the Vit-A and calcium with D3.
No improvement. Actually going downhill.
So, took him back today.
I brought up allergies, resident systemic (maybe MRSA) infection, mold, distilled water, probably some other things I have forgotten at the moment.

Know how I mentioned the vet not being great at listening? Well, I happily eat my words today! He was wonderfull!

He thought maybe the dose of Vit-A wasn't quite enough last time, so he gave another Vit-A shot, and the antibiotic Tazicef (-supposedly a broader spectrum antibiotic and better with resistant bugs).
Since I hadn't been able to get Joey to do more than lick his food a couple of times for the last two weeks, the vet gave Joey a tube-feeding along with some Metronidazole to treat a systemic or intestinal infection.

So Joey has now had double "bangs" of treatments on all sides.
I think the vet could probably feel the beginnings of doubt in me as to how long we keep Joey hanging on if he's going downhill and there is no cure. To say the least, I was very disappointed that Joey hadn't improved after last weeks shots when he did SO well after the previous two.

I still have LOTS of hope. Don't get me wrong! We are not quitting today or tomorrow or anytime this month. He now has two antibiotics on board, and the vet is looking into allergy-treatments for reptiles. Joey is my buddy, I am here for him for however long HE has the strength to go on.

Soo keep an eye out for updates from us.
Thank you from both of us for all your good thoughts sent our way. :blowkisses:
Last edited by Susann on Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby MissMeg » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:50 pm

I noticed Tobacco on that list Nae had. Do you smoke? If so in the house?
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Postby Susann » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:12 pm

MissMeg wrote:I noticed Tobacco on that list Nae had. Do you smoke? If so in the house?


Nope. Zero tobacco, zero smoke.
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Postby Katrina » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:36 pm

So glad to hear the vet was so great! :D I am really, really hoping that one of those treatments is the one that magically cures all of this.
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Postby Coomassie » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:24 am

I'm so happy to hear the vet is listening and you are willing to keep fighting as long as Joey is. This is a weird question but can you take pictures of the room Joey is in? Maybe we can spot something that might be causing problems? Also, what type of insulation is in your house? Do you keep your other skinks in the same room?
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Postby El Lobo » Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:55 am

I'm pleased your last visit with the vet was more productive in the communication sense.

You note that on two occasions Joey received abx he responded. To me that indicates higher probability the cause is bacterial by that positive response. I can't recall if a c & s has been done to identify any particular bacterium, or if a combination of abx is being tried to find something workable. One of the reptile vets I know believes a course of most abx for a reptile is well tolerated for three weeks, administered every 48 hours. He also recommends maintaining the whole enclosure at a constant PBT of (for blotchies) 32-33°C, 24 hours per day for the duration of the course . With 2 different abx as you are currently using maybe 1 per day alternating might be a benefit as it will allow them to work better individually, if your vet concurs. We often use metronidazole in combination with another abx to broaden the spectrum when initially treating an unidentified bacterial infection. It has the advantage of good efficacy with anaerobic bacteria. Metronidazole is available in oral suspension to reduce the number of injections, as is the Baytril (enrofloxacin) you have previously used. I can tell you though Baytril is not at all pleasant tasting and metronidazole has an unctuous texture even though it is often prescribed for children. I have tasted them as well as a few other veterinary drugs prescribed from time to time.:oops:

All our pets have their water from a Brita filter as we have chlorine and fluoride added to our tap water. I drink from the tap but I don't see those additives as necessary for pets.

My position would be to give a few days to allow the new drug regime a chance to work before worrying about too many environmental factor. I really can't see anything in the way your skinks are cared for to suggest any poor husbandry. Sometimes that can be a fall back position for vets more used to dealing with animals which share mixed facilities being more susceptible to transmissible conditions like coccidiosis.

Good luck with Joey. It's about time you got something positive after all the work and care put in.
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Postby Coomassie » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:23 am

Has he been tested for cryptosporidium? As I understand it, it has to be done by PCR.
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Postby Susann » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:43 pm

El Lobo wrote:You note that on two occasions Joey received abx he responded. To me that indicates higher probability the cause is bacterial by that positive response.

The last three visits, the vet has expressed a belief in the cause of Joey's symptoms being an inability to absorb Vit-A through natural means. I haven't necessarily felt that to be the case, but have had hope that we none the less have found something that WORKS. I have felt the same as El Lobo states, that we are dealing with a bacterium of some sort. And this last set of shots I believe proves that. I am happy to report that Joey has again made an irrefutable recovery.

If you recall, I took Joey in to the vet a couple of weeks ago. He received a vitamin A, and a calcium with D3 injection. No improvement. Last week I took him in again, this time to receive an antibiotic injection. He is now better.

In March Joey received Vit-A, Calcium w/D3, and an antibiotic injection. Huge improvement.
In June, the same injections. Huge improvement.
In Sept, only Vit-A, and calcium w/D3 injections, no improvement. Later added antibiotic, huge improvement.
Question now in my mind: would the antibiotic injections be enough? They have not been in the past. But I believe I will perhaps have the vet only give Joey the antibiotic injection should he begin to show signs of illness again. Maybe in the past Joey was too sick for the antibiotic to be enough. Now that he has been through longer periods of being in much better shape, the antibiotic might perhaps be enough...?

El Lobo wrote:I can't recall if a c & s has been done to identify any particular bacterium, or if a combination of abx is being tried to find something workable.

What is an a c & s?
At the very beginning of Joey's illness, a sample of his mucous was sent off for lab studies. I was told that everything tested was negative. I was also told that, unfortunately, that means absolutely nothing, because the amounts of mucous received from reptiles are generally too small to survive the transport to a lab. By the time it is received for testing--no bacteria is alive, and obviously all tests will come back negative.
Because no animal hospital has an in-house lab, reptile lab-results are often inconclusive.

El Lobo wrote:We often use metronidazole in combination with another abx to broaden the spectrum when initially treating an unidentified bacterial infection. It has the advantage of good efficacy with anaerobic bacteria.

This time was a first in the application of two different antibiotics. Previously Joey has received injections of either Ceftazidime or Baytril. In either case, he has improved.
This time Joey received an injection of Baytril, and as he hadn't been eating, and had lost 6 grams in one week, the vet suggested giving Joey a tube feeding, and adding to the formula fed, some Metronidazole.
Just like El Lobo stated, the two antibiotics work on different bacteria, and just to give Joey an extra boost with the feed, the vet thought a one time dose of Metronidazole might be beneficial.
Joey is well. Not GREAT, but I would say he is 50% better than he was a week ago.

SHOULD Joey again need to be treated, I think I will have the vet do this treatment again. Give an injected antibiotic and a tube feed with added Metronidazole. Should Joey not improve, then I will take him back to receive the vitamin and calcium injections.

I feel cautiously optimistic. It is SOOOO good to see Joey improved! I love that stinkers cute little guts, and am so glad he had the strength to fight a little bit more again.

Thank you El Lobo for your knowledge and thoughts yet again! And Thank You for all the questions and suggestions and positive thoughts and well-wishes from everybody.

--All our love,
Joey and Susann--
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Postby El Lobo » Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:47 am

Susann wrote:What is an a c & s?
At the very beginning of Joey's illness, a sample of his mucous was sent off for lab studies. I was told that everything tested was negative. I was also told that, unfortunately, that means absolutely nothing, because the amounts of mucous received from reptiles are generally too small to survive the transport to a lab. By the time it is received for testing--no bacteria is alive, and obviously all tests will come back negative.
Because no animal hospital has an in-house lab, reptile lab-results are often inconclusive.


A c & s is a culture and sensitivity test where a sample taken by the vet is cultured and then treated with different abx to determine which has the best efficacy. It is much as you describe above. It is not particularly effective unless a sample from a known infected area is used.

My limited experience is derived from parrots and rabbits. Unlike a reptile both these species have rapid metabolism so possible different protocols are required, although I do wonder the value of a one off shot of abx rather than a course. When we have treated rabbits and parrots it has always been a course of at least a week. Parrots have been kept in a cage in a room with the temperature kept 24/7 at a constant 30°C.

There is a link here by Dr. Douglas Mader which discusses in depth abx therapy for reptiles.

http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/av ... ?id=567299

A couple of quick points:

Other than MRSA there are bacteria such as pseudomonas which are also notoriously difficult to treat.
Be aware when injecting Baytril of a condition known as 'Baytril burn'. It can cause necrosis of the skin and tissue at the injection site.
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Postby Katrina » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:25 am

Just some general thoughts... not necessarily pertinent to Joey's case.

Thanks for the great article link. I'm going to add it to the advanced discussion thread collection if you don't mind.

My vet didn't ever take a culture - he said it was very difficult to get a discreet culture and that the results weren't very reliable. This was for either blood (difficult to culture due to anaerobic conditions), eye area or mouth (due to so many various kinds of bacteria living in those areas). I'm not sure if there are reasons why cultures wouldn't work as well in reptiles as compared to mammals, or if it was just the specific problems that I presented weren't conducive to cultures.

I found injectible antibiotics to be preferable to oral because once we got used to injecting it was easy to ensure the entire dose was taken. With oral, they often spit some of it out when they knew it was coming. Baytril burn is good to be aware of, we didn't have any issue but two of the three courses of injectible antibiotics I administered were not Baytril.

I read in Mader's text that when injecting antibiotics in lizards, you want to ensure that you inject in the front half of the body - if you inject in the hind legs / tail area due to the way their blood is circulated it could all go through the kidneys and be effectively cleaned out before it could do any good. I asked my vet and he said newer research suggests otherwise, but it wasn't a bad idea to be safe and inject in the front half of the body just in case.

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