Out door enclosure in Ca?

[Hopeful_Herper]

I live in the valley in Ca. In another post I heard James mention possibly keeping BTS outside here. In the dead of summer it can get like 110 out and in the winter it can get like 35-40 degrees. I was wondering if that could be possible for a hardier species of BTS like a Northern to live outside here?

They could be given access to some kind of burrow that would stay cool in summer and a little bit of heat in winter.

[critterguy]

Being familiar with Central Valley weather(Fresno native, myself), I'd say it'd be ok during the warmer months(late spring thru fall). I would bring them in when night temps are forecasted to drop below 60.I don't think it is acceptable for them to brumate for ,say, 5 months so you'd need a normally setup enclosure indoors for several months of the year. Brumation could be done November till February as per usual. Hopefully a breeder can input on this one.

[Nae]

Being familiar with Central Valley weather(Fresno native, myself), I'd say it'd be ok during the warmer months(late spring thru fall). I would bring them in when night temps are forecasted to drop below 60.I don't think it is acceptable for them to brumate for ,say, 5 months so you'd need a normally setup enclosure indoors for several months of the year. Brumation could be done November till February as per usual. Hopefully a breeder can input on this one.

Why is that? In the wild they can and do brumate for well over 5 months, 6- 7 is about the norm actually?

[Hopeful_Herper]

From what I know and I have never brumated or cooled any animal, but isn't it okay to go down to even 55. Maybe some very low wattage heating tape or something to keep a built in burrow above 60?

[xxmonitorlizardxx]

http://bluetongueskinks.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15206

[James Wilson]

While it is possible, it is not something I would personally recommend as it is a much larger undertaking that most people would realize. Doing this almost always ends in disaster unless you have the mind of both a Biologist and an Engineer in addition to unlimited financial resources to do it right. There are so many things to consider, such as: skinks tunneling out, other animals getting in (both wild and domestic), power outages in the winter, exposure to parasites and other foreign pathogens. In addition, Northerns are are a subtropical to tropical species. The Valley has a climate of extreme temps that Northenrs just do not experience in the wild, but even if they did, that does not make it ok. In the end, if you consider and address all of these factors you will end up with a very expensive Bio-dome in your back yard. So often, people get into the mindset of "nature is better", but a back yard in the valley is not anywhere close to your skink's natural environment. In addition, the wild can be a very harsh place (even in the best of circumstances) where BTS have to deal with the rigors of living in the wild, and they often live much shorter, harder lives as a result. When they survive, they do it in spite of these things, not because of them, and while many live very short lives, there are still enough animals that manage to survive and make it through to the breeding season each season so that the species survives, and that is what is really important about the wild where they have evolved. But still it is a numbers game, and we need to remember many die in this situation. The sick, weak, slow, and sometimes just unlucky individuals get culled out by disease, exposure, or predators. This is nature's way of providing sustenance to other species while keeping this species strong by allowing only the strongest, fastest, and most hardy breed. In captivity we do not do this. Why would we, we love our skinks. We are not dealing with the species in the wild, but individuals in captivity. When we get sick or weak skinks, we nurse them back to health. They often grow up, breed and pass on genes that nature may not have ever allowed. We often breed with completely different goals in mind. It is often our nature as humans to breed animals for their aesthetic qualities. Pretty colors and patterns are what is often important to us (myself included). In addition, we have a very small gene pool here in the US, and that, in combination with our tendencies to breed for aesthetics, causes to inadvertently isolate many weaker genes that the wild would not tolerate (color morphs such as albinos are a perfect example). I know I sound like I am harping, and this is not just for the original poster, but for others that are thinking about the same thing. When Keeping BTS (or any other herps) it is our job to reduce any negative aspects of the wild, because in a sense, captive BTS are not wild. They are not domestic either, but in the 40+ years that we have had them here, we have already changed them. We breed animals to thrive in captivity, not the wild, and in a sense we play god in the process. That is a huge responsibility. As a result of these things, we need to provide our captives with all the benefits of captivity, and reduce the dangerous aspects of the wild, and if you can do this outside in an enclosure, more power to you. For me, I simply do not have the money or time to eliminate all the risk factors.

[James Wilson]

Being familiar with Central Valley weather(Fresno native, myself), I'd say it'd be ok during the warmer months(late spring thru fall). I would bring them in when night temps are forecasted to drop below 60.I don't think it is acceptable for them to brumate for ,say, 5 months so you'd need a normally setup enclosure indoors for several months of the year. Brumation could be done November till February as per usual. Hopefully a breeder can input on this one.

Why is that? In the wild they can and do brumate for well over 5 months, 6- 7 is about the norm actually?

I would say that a brumation in the wild of 7 months is debatable at best even for the most southern ranging species, but not for Northerns.

[Nae]

In the southern area of WA, I have observed the local shingles, as well as my own Mazi who lived outside, going into brumation around March, not coming out again until September, but you do have a point that it would most probably be different for Northerns~

[James Wilson]

In the southern area of WA, I have observed the local shingles, as well as my own Mazi who lived outside, going into brumation around March, not coming out again until September, but you do have a point that it would most probably be different for Northerns~

March to September would be 6 months and still probably more of an exception as opposed to the norm for the Australian BTS as a whole. In addition, I am refering more to Tiliqua as rather than Trachydosaurus, as things could be very different with that genus.

[Jeff]

I wish I could have said that as clearly as you did James. I agree 100% with your views on this.

I am also one of the weirdos who might try to build an outdoor enclosure that works outside of Australia some day.

[Nae]

Apologies, by 6-7 months I meant as in between them, instead of say 6 months and 2 weeks. Whether they went into brumation early/ late March and came out early/late September varies depending on the weather and other variables.

[James Wilson]

Apologies, by 6-7 months I meant as in between them, instead of say 6 months and 2 weeks. Whether they went into brumation early/ late March and came out early/late September varies depending on the weather and other variables.

No apologies, good points. Thanks.

[James Wilson]

I wish I could have said that as clearly as you did James. I agree 100% with your views on this.

I am also one of the weirdos who might try to build an outdoor enclosure that works outside of Australia some day.

If there is a weirdo out there that could do it correctly, it would be you.

[critterguy]

Weather in the Central Valley is slightly hotter than that in the NT in the summer. Shouldn't be too big of a deal with provided shelter for the animals. They will probably end up being most active early morning and late afternoon as they do in the wild.

I think the big concern w Northerns outdoors would be fighting. I suspect two Northerns would need a huge outdoor enclosure to be safely housed together.

What is odd is that we brumate our Northerns at temperatures they would never experience in the wild. Really a more accurate portrayal would be merely dropping the night temps to 60 and a slight decrease in dayttime ambient. But the funny thing is that Northerns and other reptiles seem to do just fine exposed to more drastic seasons in captivity than in the wild.

James: Have you visited the SD zoo recently? I was absolutely thrilled with their two outdoor exhibits(one of eurasian reptiles such as sheltopusiks, jeweled lacertas, and european pond turtles and the other of African reptiles such as a hingeback, redhead agamas, and giant plated lizards). I suspect they remain outdoors all year. I really like that the reptile house had skylights for all the exhibits-which made for terrible photos but the reptiles could be observed enjoying the sun during midday.

[Scotts1au]

Here in Victorian in Southern Australia, my blotchies generally start to brumate in April and Easterns in May. They don't fully emerge until mid September'ish, meaning about at least 5-6 months. Some don't eat properly until mid November (generally males). Blotchies emerge on warm days during brumation but generally only if they approach 20C or more. Easterns will be up and down even out at fairly low temps, such as 13C as long as it is sunny.

Temps get as low as -6C here overnight on occasion, (around 18F) but the blueys tend to ride it out ok cos they are in contact with soil which buffers temps. They also find other forms of insulation, using leaf packs, large logs or situated under large clumping grasses etc. Blotchies will often sleep rough in environments without these extremes.

That being said, their body temps would still be very low - in the order of 3C whereas I would think that anywhere near these temps would be lethal for tropical animals.

One of the problems with relying on heat tape or similar is that you have to guarantee that the animals will brumate where you want them to. Once they brumate on a cold night they won't get up to move to the tape, they are at the mercy of their environment.

[James Wilson]

That being said, their body temps would still be very low - in the order of 3C whereas I would think that anywhere near these temps would be lethal for tropical animals.

One of the problems with relying on heat tape or similar is that you have to guarantee that the animals will brumate where you want them to. Once they brumate on a cold night they won't get up to move to the tape, they are at the mercy of their environment.

Agreed, and well said.

[critterguy]

Ineresting in that the easterns are more active in cold weather. I know for many species(stinkpot turtles being one studied example) cold hardiness varies with origin of the animals. I wonder if the Easterns we have in the US would prove significantly tougher to cold than Northerns. Do the Easterns shelter in warmer spots than the blotchies? Seems like they can at the very least be kept outdoors all year in Socal.

The fact the Easterns are more active in colder weather than blotchies actually suggests to me they are less adapted to cold climates. Most reptiles from areas with long cold winters stop eating well before temps drop and generally start winding down. Mountain kingsnakes are a great example of this. Tropical animals for the most part are rather dumb when it comes to avoiding freezing temperatures and I've read a few anecdotes of pythons crawling from relatively warm places out into snow to freeze to death.

[James Wilson]

Weather in the Central Valley is slightly hotter than that in the NT in the summer. Shouldn't be too big of a deal with provided shelter for the animals. They will probably end up being most active early morning and late afternoon as they do in the wild.

Agreed, and it is the low winter temps that I would be most concerned about in addition to the other concerns I mentioned.

[James Wilson]

James: Have you visited the SD zoo recently? I was absolutely thrilled with their two outdoor exhibits(one of eurasian reptiles such as sheltopusiks, jeweled lacertas, and european pond turtles and the other of African reptiles such as a hingeback, redhead agamas, and giant plated lizards). I suspect they remain outdoors all year. I really like that the reptile house had skylights for all the exhibits-which made for terrible photos but the reptiles could be observed enjoying the sun during midday.

Yes, and while it makes for a great exhibit, the animals best interests are not being met, and their mixing of species along with many other carless decisions do have their unfortunate consequences. We just do not hear about them as the Zoo community does not like those sorts of things to get out to the general public. As a former zoo worker, I could tell you many nightmare stories that I whitnessed first hand at my zoo and others as well. I can tell you that while I did not work at San Diego Zoo, I knew and still know people that work there including a former SD zoo worker(he will remain unnammed for privicy reasons) that informed me that the the SD zoo regularly produced Northern BTS, and that they fed the babies to their Monitor Lizards because the baby BTS had no real value or trade power in the zoo community, and the zoo's policies discouraged the placing of zoo offspring into the private sector.

[Richard.C]

the reasons for easterns being active during brumation relates to them trying to keep there temps with in a certain parameter,especially in the south of the range,they are no where near as cold hardy as blotches,yet occupy most of the range the blotches do,i found a female out basking today,13 degrees celcius,but sunny at the time,so trying to up its temps abit,ive also seen them come out of compost heaps to cool down on sunny days during brumation,as compost holds a bit of warmth,especially on sunny days,one year i even saw an eastern brumate under an old window do the same thing,on sunny days it left the window as it went higher than it could brumate at,yet would return by sundown,on overcast days it stayed asleep under the glass,this went on from may till early august.

blotcheys will curl up in the open for up to 6 months here,some dont even bask,exposed to freezing temps,easterns use things to keep warmer over winter,warm enough to survive,but not to need to have to eat,probably why they are very common in human disturbed habitats,they use it to there advantage too survive cold winters

northerns are exposed to hot days year round,they brumate during the dry season,when its cooler at night yet still hot during the day