Bad day but a bit of BTS always helps

[Toxique]

I know many people find it hard to think that reptiles can 'feel' emotions on the level like a dog or a cat can. But I really do have to disagree, while not as much, I think they do feel them (emotions) to some degree.

Either way, after a very bad day Mortimer was happy to curl up and take a snooze on my lap (normally he's all over the place when I've got him out) and just let me sit with him and use him as a little bitty therapist.

I just wanted to know, do you guys notice things like that in your lizards or reptiles?

[Bird_Brain]

I'd disagree

I think this is one of those very touchy topics that tends to get heated quickly

[Fatal_S]

Seems to me the times I most need a cuddle are the times my skinks most need to use the bathroom -.-' I find my skinks tend to prefer exploring to cuddling, so I try to let them do whatever they want. Sometimes they'll use me as a body-heater though, and that's nice :3 (until they warm up and bite/pee...)

I believe my reptiles have likes and dislikes (foods, handling, hides, etc), but I'm not sure about emotions. I don't see them as having empathy though.

[Katrina]

Yeah, there have been heated discussions on this before! So please keep it civil...

I believe they feel stuff like fear, stress - things for survival. I don't think they experience empathy, happiness, love. That doesn't mean that they aren't curious, fairly intelligent and amazing little guys... I just don't think they can tell (or care) if I am having a bad day and I don't think they love me or really care about me - they do like that I feed them and are used to me / inquisitive though!

[robere]

I agree with Katrina. I've had dogs and I love dogs, I just dont want the responsibility of a dog. I've owned snakes my entire life ( I'm 53 ), so a lizard is a step up on the intellectual side. Tho I love my reptiles, I know , no matter how much I want them to love me, realistically I know they will never be affectionate. They live off instinct. They know where their food comes from and thats where YOu come in.
I try to take my BTS out daily during the summer. She scratches on the glass to get out, but I know its not to see me, its wanting to go outside and hunt snails or explore the couch etc.
I love my BTS, and she just gets cooler with every passing day ( she's 10 months old ), but I know she's still just a reptile.

[Coomassie]

I don't know what motivates it per say but I know some of my reptiles do "ask" to come out and seem to at least enjoy my body heat. I find this to be true of my crested geckos, (some) leopard geckos, and my BTS. All snakes I've dealt with don't care for people (but that is ok, I like them anyway). Coomassie will often explore for a while and then come back and lay with me (probably because he is cold). He also likes to explore my ears and my hair. My cresties enjoy being on shoulders or heads because they are up high. I think reptiles are a lot smarter than people give them credit for (except maybe my tortoise) and it has been shown that most, if not all, intelligence tests on reptiles are faulty. I also think they are capable of recognizing people. I know that my reptiles do not act the same when my husband or I interact with them vs other people.

[critterguy]

Since BTS are not social by any means I would not expect any such behavior from them. My guy is very calm once taken out of the cage and has been in a few educational presentations. However-atm he's in shed and very easily annoyed...huffing and threatening to bite if I bother him in his cage. Other times he will eye me casually-perhaps a dim realization that food is on the way.

Redfoot tortoises have recently been shown to be able to learn by observation-the way octopus, and of course some higher animals can. But I don't think BTS are particularly bright in this respect. Also-I know of a few people who claim their snakes(and their fish) can recognize them. Without controlled studies these anecdotes are just good stories.

So while I enjoy spending time with my BTS and appreciate the fact that he is so calm-I realize he is just very tolerant of apparently meaningless stimuli while outside of his cage.

[Linnea]

i know they can feel stress, hunger and such. all the basic stuff.

But empathy, no......I dont believe that. if they had lived in groups in nature then probably, they would have some kind of reaction towards others of the same kind, who can turn on that reflex switch.

Personality wise i think they have a lot of personality, especially bts. Favourite food among lizards is not unheard of, and some are calmer than others etc.....but they kinda also have their own way of moving, behaving in certain situations....

dont mix a grand and mixed personality with emotions.....basically, i believe most reptiles act on pure reflex. although ive seen skinks look at two things and decide, which is one of the things they have earned my respect for : D ( although sometimes they choose to dive down from heights instead of taking a safer path....)

im rather sure my skink doesnt recognize me. He comes out to greet anyone who has a food bowl or might have one. Although he listens for the sighing sound i often make when im bored, as it usually means hes gonna get a treat soon...

[herpgirl2510]

I don't know about skinks but my tegu will be exploring then come over to me and crawl on my lap and likes to be rubbed. There are some cute videos of them ignoring the food being put down and crawling all over their keepers. So I would not lump all reptiles together I however don't don't think they have human emotions. I do think some will seek out attention on their terms or maybe that is just with tegus. I also think they do recognize their owners mine act differently when I handle them than when someone else does this includes my ball pytons. My salt water fish would go crazy by the glass when I came into the room not when everyone else did because I am the one who feeds them.

[El Lobo]

There are some rather sweeping statements regarding BTS' emotional responses so far in this thread . Whilst it is interesting to read the interpretations of a diverse group of posters there does appear to be a lot of assumptions being made by those with limited keeping experience and from what I can gather no wild observation experience. The presumption that all BTS need to be kept in solitary existence has good foundation for those in the Northern Hemisphere but does not necessarily hold true for those with Tiliqua. If it were the absolute then many long-term vastly experienced Australian keepers would be erring by having pits.

For those who are convinced BTS' can display no emotion, consider the mostly monogamous Shingleback.

[critterguy]

If the act of remaining dedicated to a partner is an emotion-than fish, crustaceans, etc. must be emotionally attached to eachother as well?

I have definetly not had much experience keeping Tiliqua nor any luck to see them in the wild-however the local reptiles here are similar enough. Living together is different from being part of an actual cooperative community. Reptiles, and actually crabs even, have been shown to remember their status in the dominance hierarchy of two completely seperate groups of individuals...but to suggest anything emotional is going on is going to far JMO. I am not convinced BTS bond in any way to us as owners as is also being suggested.

The OP is crediting her lizard with empathy-which is as of yet undemonstrated in reptiles-but if it were to be present in any they'd most likely be those with intricate social structure.(perhaps that colonial skink who's mammal like colonies were recently described?) I believe cross species empathy has only been described in primates and dogs.

For anyone interested in the topic of animal emotions, the book 'Wild Justice' might be an interesting read. Don't hold your breath for anything on reptiles though.

[Katrina]

there does appear to be a lot of assumptions being made by those with limited keeping experience and from what I can gather no wild observation experience.

Isn't that true of most threads on here?

[Fatal_S]

For those who are convinced BTS' can display no emotion, consider the mostly monogamous Shingleback.

I love the stories of shingles staying with their mate, or a mother skink protecting her babies, but I can't say I'd attach emotion to it (but nor would I say it's definitely not there). From my understanding of BTS, I infer the following:

When the skinks get into breeding season, pretty much everything else becomes lower priority (a strong instinct without which they might never leave safety to find a mate). Males often won't bother with eating and won't hide. They'll warm up enough to move and go looking for a lady. Now the difference with shingles seems to be they 'think' differently, namely "find one good mate and stick to it like glue", while other skinks may (correct me if I'm wrong here) mate once and keep looking. So I see it more as instinct telling the shingle to stick to that mate like glue for all of breeding time, ignoring safety and food. Instinct makes that mate first priority IMO.

As for a mother protecting offspring, that's a fantastic instinct IMO. The more advanced species have often had to evolve to the point where they protect their young, and it's good for the species because it increases the success rate per offspring (often protective instincts occur in species that produce fewer offspring, and thus need the advantage of having a mom or family to look after it). I would be much happier to breed a skink-mom that protects it's offspring rather than one who ignores them or especially attacks/eats them. Of course there are exceptions to everything here, for example crocs who produce lots, protect the babies, and haven't really evolved much recently (I guess they don't need to, they've already got the best of both worlds there, which is probably why they recover so quickly from near-extinction... sorry, tangent).

When an animal does something, I like to consider what instinct could be driving that behavior. Even likes/dislikes could possibly be about nutrients naturally needed. Which raises the question (which I've often asked myself) if a skink would prefer to eat superworms over veggies, do we force the skink to eat veggies or do we assume the skink is capable of deciding what it needs. I have trouble with this one, because a lot of times skinks seem to like eating things that probably aren't the healthiest for them (I can't see stealing a bite of my revel as being a nutrient-conscious choice). This is why I currently believe skinks have likes and dislikes. It also explains why siblings raised the same way don't have to like the same things (it's interesting to give my guys each a bowl of mixed berries and see who leaves what behind).

As for bonding, I can see this. Well, at least to the point that my skinks are used to me, somewhat used to my sisters/friends, and not very used to other people. I see this a lot with my guys. They recognize me, and my sisters, and the tray that brings food, etc. Most of my reptiles do have a preference for me (as a known variable I assume) over other people. Some show this by biting me more though... But I do believe they are intelligent reptiles who can recognize, think and learn, but I don't ascribe emotions to this.

And again, I could be completely wrong, and I'm good with that. This is how I see them right now, but that could change anytime. I'm always learning more.

[El Lobo]

there does appear to be a lot of assumptions being made by those with limited keeping experience and from what I can gather no wild observation experience.

Isn't that true of most threads on here?

Unfortunately that does seem to be the way and in the main I take little or no notice of it. There are times though when I experience a certain level of frustration with some of the "facts" presented; this is such a time. The 'fact" that they do not live together in the wild is not supported by the observations of young blotchies I made a few years ago and shared on this forum. It may be the case with some sub-species but it cannot be unilaterally applied.

I no longer post my observations of either the captive or wild blotchies; particularly not behavioural aspects as I have been told when I sometimes differ with the forum's convential theoretic wisdom I, by definition, must be wrong. This does not imply that I necessarily believe BTS' display emotions either towards each other, or towards their keepers. However, I have had enough experience with animals to know that a certain level of bonding is possible between an animal and its human carer. Most predominantly this occurs with mammalian and avian pets but I am not willing to madatorily rule out such a possibility with a bluey. Bonding can take a considerable amount of time and I don't recall anyone here having attempted developing such a bond.

But I don't think BTS are particularly bright in this respect. Also-I know of a few people who claim their snakes(and their fish) can recognize them. Without controlled studies these anecdotes are just good stories.

Personally I don't understand the philosophy that would deem it necessary to keep a BTS as a pet only governed by the results of controlled studies. Understanding science relating to the species is obviously of benefit, but it is only half the story of keeping them as pets. It reminds me of the scientist who wanted to father twins so he could raise one by his scientific methods and keep the other as a control. For a breeder the situation may differ, but then the distinction between a pet and stock would need to be determined.

[Fatal_S]

El Lobo, I'm curious as to what you consider to be bonding?

When I was using it, I was thinking along the lines of likes/dislikes, recognition and basic trust. My skinks like me more than my sisters, and my sisters more than strangers. They generally have accepted that I'm not going to hurt them, and they recognize me as a source of good things (food and exploration time). But to me these are basically a learned behavior, which I'm thinking may not count in your definition of a bond?

Also Lobo, do you remember back when cooked chicken was, on this forum, the best of all possible foods, and dogfood and supplements were considered to be inferior and bad for BTS? People who recommended dogfood and/or supplements were simply told they were wrong, and that chicken was better. And idiots like me who took this to heart (too far) ended up killing and damaging my skinks with MBD. Look how far we've come now, simply because some people stuck to their guns and defended their point. Basically, if this forum is going to continue growing as a place where we try to understand the skinks and do what's best for them, we need people who are willing and able to provide us with new concepts and research. I for one am always willing to hear a new idea or side to a story, so I'd love it if you'd continue to share your incredible knowledge and any observations with us. Debate is healthy, it's how we grow.

[El Lobo]

Hi Fatal - I would like to discuss bonding in greater detail but I'm a bit short on time at the moment, so I'll try to give a little insight.

Bonding in my interpretation is the relationship that develops between either two of the one species, or alternatively between a pet and a carer. Obviously I have experienced a great deal more with rabbits and parrots as I have had them as pets for a lot longer than the blotchies. In the most general terms it is a desire between the two parties to be together and share each others company as much as possible. It can range from just being in close proximity to each other to allogrooming. I'm a member of another forum for rabbits and like this forum there is at times little tolerance of those who have differing views on behaviour and bonding. I practice a different version to the majority and don't intend changing because of the success I have achieved. There are a few of us with the same views so tend to communicate with each other by PM rather than the open forum.

I don't believe I have a particularly good insight into BTS as it is only based on blotchies and the shingles I have seen when I used to travel quite a bit, but I try to observe the wild ones and learn from their behaviour to help me better understand the pets.

I only remember a little of the chicken dog/cat food debate and I did use chicken when the blotchies were younger. Nowadays I mainly stay with kangaroo meat and a good selection of vegetables. I have always used UVB lighting and supplemented with calcium and D3. It is interesting now though that the blotchies are three years old they are eating more and more of the vegetable portion of their meal and not so obsessed with the meat protein. I have had the wildies here for a long time now but I have to concede I still don't really know a great deal about what they eat.

Might be able to discuss a bit more if the thread is still active in the next few days.

[critterguy]

El Lobo: Not an unusual way of looking at a relationship...and that would definetly exist between a human owner and some mammals and birds. Not sure for other animals though if they have a holistic view of their caretakers and wish to spend time with them. If a bluetongue lays still in your lap-is he enjoying spending time with you...or are you merely a warm and safe place to be-and he'd be just as likely to hide in the shavings in his cage? I would say I've spent an inornidate amount of time with my bluetongue during the relatively short period I've had him(from when he was 3 months old to now at 1 year). He's been to friend's houses, to school to catch some rays on a warm day where he sits beside me on the bench as cool as a cat, under my sweatshirt when we got snowbound in a mountain pass and stuck in traffic for several hours, to educational presentations in front of kids...and more. Their is also regular interaction with him when I feed him and mess with things in his cage to provide an enriching environment. I am frequently asked if I feel he has any sort of emotional bond to me-and I am forced to say no-I have not seen any evidence of that. It may be that he's relatively used to being around other people but other than the possiblity that I may be more intune to how he responds best he is tame and tractable around pretty much everyone when out and about-so I can't say he has a bond with me in particular.

Not sure what is meant by the comment of science being only half the story. Is looking at animal behavior in a scientific way not the best way to understand it?(which-yes...includes attributing emotions to animals when evidence deems this appropriate). I suppose the other half of keeping a pet is just your enjoyment of it. But this thread is afterall on whether BTS have emotions-which is much harder to determine than whether their owners have emotional attachment to them.

BTW-it is a shame you feel to not share more of your unique observations of natural history of these creatures in the wild. I've enjoyed the ones I've found you posted so far. I think debates are how ideas are tested-it is a shame to read a potentially interesting thread to see it has denigrated to "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality. Lets hope their are many more debates as we progress forward together in appreciation of these beautiful animals.

[Katrina]

I don't have enough time to post all that I want to... but I really appreciate the idea that debate and questioning things is healthy and not meant to be right vs wrong, but rather to learn. Hopefully we can all debate in a respectful, constructive way - like Mel said, things like the chicken vs dog food and even humidity requirements for different species have come a long way in the few years that I've been active on this forum. It is great that we are all learning from each other.

I do agree with Lobo that often newbies or those with limited experience with one bluey will seem to be presenting facts rather than opinion or trying to be too helpful when maybe the advice they are giving is not entirely correct. It is frustrating - we want to encourage new members and keep newbies posting and asking questions, so jumping on them for little things definitely doesn't help. I'm not really sure how to properly address that or how to keep people from becoming self appointed experts.... if anyone has feedback for myself or the other mods on this I'd appreciate it (just PM one of us).

Obviously if you think that something should be said to someone or that incorrect advice is being given, please bring it to a mods attention.