Bobtail flu :(

[spandangle]

This is more aimed at the Aussie keepers, especially those of us in WA.

Only two weeks ago, I noticed that one of my shinglebacks was very 'snot faced' and had his eyes glued shut. A couple days later, the little girl came down with the same thing but not as bad. It is a real pain in the bum to say the least. All my shinglebacks were slowing down and almost ready to brumate. I tried steaming them for 30 minutes a day to clear them up but after a few days they weren't any better. I went to the vets and he prescribed them baytril and advised me to keep them from brumating until at least they are fully recovered. I am really annoyed by it because the vet said that they may have it reoccur in the future.

I am very surprised that not much is mentioned anywhere about this virus. I have not read of anyone having this problem even though the vets are busy treating this virus in pet bluetongues in the Perth area. The research I have done on this in the past seems to say that the virus is highly contagious and it has wiped out a large number of wild shinglebacks in WA. My shinglebacks are kept inside so they are away from the wild population, but somehow they still got it.

I am curious to know how many keepers in WA have had their animals come down with this? Is it a huge problem like they say? Wouldn't this be a worry to those in the eastern states who buy animals from WA?

[Fatal_S]

Is this different from a respiratory infection? I know a serious RI can have the same symptoms (and is treated with baytril as well), but I'm unfamiliar with a shingle-specific disease (I'm a Canuk though, so shingles aren't exactly a common occurance).

[Katrina]

Yeah, this is very interesting to me as well. Very sorry to hear it happened to you, but it does sound similar to RI to me. I hadn't heard of any viruses that blueys get, so thanks for sharing this. How long is the course of bayrtil for? Oral?

[Scotts1au]

There is also a disease which is probably the same or similar thing to bobtail flu which affects T.scincoides.

Symptoms include body wasting, stargazing, eventual death from starvation or RI. Most people who have kept T.scincoides in Aus have seen it. Cause not known. Does take some time to kill them though.

[Helikaon]

ive found the best way to treat it in both shingles and easterns is to start them on 2 lots of antibiotics, my usual is fortum injs with metronidazole oral liquid or baytril oral. i Nebulize them twice a day for 15mins each time and tube feed them 5-10 of liquid food once a day. and i use a broad spec ointment in there eyes. keep them at their preferred body temp which is about 33 degrees and wait for improvement.

[El Lobo]

ive found the best way to treat it in both shingles and easterns is to start them on 2 lots of antibiotics, my usual is fortum injs with metronidazole oral liquid or baytril oral. i Nebulize them twice a day for 15mins each time and tube feed them 5-10 of liquid food once a day. and i use a broad spec ointment in there eyes. keep them at their preferred body temp which is about 33 degrees and wait for improvement.

If they were my shinglebacks I would be approaching the same way as Helikaon. From some reading it does not seem the causative bacterium has been isolated so broadening the spectrum with two abx makes sense, so long as they are well tolerated.

Keeping at PBT 24/7 is essential, together with regular hydration.

Gary, how did you achieve the nebulising? Did you make some type of chamber and was it just sterile saline? Also, do you think these symptoms present a lot like chlamydiosis in birds?

A relevant paper for anyone interested:

http://www.kanyanawildlife.org.au/index ... &Itemid=86

Similar information but with a more general health perspective for shinglebacks:

http://ninox.lostrealm.com/nwrc2007/hai ... btails.pdf

Good luck.

[Helikaon]

Hi, Yes i built a chamge with an ultra sonic humidifier quite often all i use is sterile saline, or distilled water with F10 Similar to how they fog birds withing their avairies with f10 at 2-3ml per litre. I will have to get some photos. But yes the symptoms are rather similar to chlamydiosis in birds. This is the one disease that i have found where they can go from healthy to very sick with alot of weight loss very quickly. If you dont get on to is quickly and aggressively you will usually lose the animal. One thing to be carefull of is when tube feeding reduce your amount and do more often if needed these guys will regurge and quite often aspirate and you will quite often lose them within a day from that point

[acanthurus]

I've had this occur in my shingles a large number of times and it seems to be just something they are prone to esp at this time of year when it gets damp. I've had the same infection in a few species of bluetongues and monitors.

It sounds like most agree this is due to a virus, myself included. As such no combination of antibiotics from the vet will treat or cure it. Antibiotics treat bacterial infections. They may however treat secondary infections leading to pneumonia.

When any of mine come down with this I bring them inside and put them in a dry container (very important to make sure the humidity is low as possible). If they have more than just a snuffly nose (i.e. arking their back up to breath, choking noises) I will then put a ceramic heat lamp on them and make sure they have a few hours each day of basking temps above 35 degrees. I have never lost one to this infection as of yet.

Shingles are very robust, and so long as you get in early they will be fine. Just remember the key is to get the humidity as low as possible.

[Nae]

Luckily I have never come across this :/ Sounds awful, does anyone know if it affects Westerns and Centrals also?

[spandangle]

Thanks for the replies. It makes me feel better knowing that I am not the only one who gets sick animals (I don't mean that in a disrespectful way at all).

I am happy to report that the little girl is completely cleared and has had a bight to eat. The other one is getting there also. His breathing is much better, he has been active today which is the first time in about 2 weeks, but he still has one gummed up eye and he still hasn't eaten anything. I am a little concern about his weight. He has lost some fat from his tail. I am keeping up their treatment everyday.

Is this different from a respiratory infection? I know a serious RI can have the same symptoms (and is treated with baytril as well), but I'm unfamiliar with a shingle-specific disease (I'm a Canuk though, so shingles aren't exactly a common occurance).

Apparently it is a virus. I have only been in WA for 10 months and never heard of this disease until I moved here. I am still not 100% convinced it is a virus. The symptoms are similar to an RI and I don't know how they work out the difference.

How long is the course of bayrtil for? Oral?

They are on a two week course of baytril and yes it is oral.

i Nebulize them twice a day for 15mins each time and tube feed them 5-10 of liquid food once a day. and i use a broad spec ointment in there eyes. keep them at their preferred body temp which is about 33 degrees and wait for improvement.

I have wired up a ceramic heater with thermostat to keep them warmer. They are kept at around 29 degrees at the cooler end and around 26°C at night. Is the 33 degrees the basking temp? The basking temp in my enclosure is often above 35.

I have made up a plastic tub that I put them in for 30 minutes a day. I use a dish with boiling water (above their heads so they can't touch it), put euclypt leaves in the water and place towel over the top. This is working like a treat. It clears them right up. I haven't thought about doing it twice day. Everyone I have spoken to recommends once daily for about 30 minutes. The vet told me that he had a client that had success clearing them up by taking them in the shower with her. I am not sure about that one though.

[spandangle]

I've had this occur in my shingles a large number of times and it seems to be just something they are prone to esp at this time of year when it gets damp. I've had the same infection in a few species of bluetongues and monitors.

It sounds like most agree this is due to a virus, myself included. As such no combination of antibiotics from the vet will treat or cure it. Antibiotics treat bacterial infections. They may however treat secondary infections leading to pneumonia.

When any of mine come down with this I bring them inside and put them in a dry container (very important to make sure the humidity is low as possible). If they have more than just a snuffly nose (i.e. arking their back up to breath, choking noises) I will then put a ceramic heat lamp on them and make sure they have a few hours each day of basking temps above 35 degrees. I have never lost one to this infection as of yet.

Shingles are very robust, and so long as you get in early they will be fine. Just remember the key is to get the humidity as low as possible.

It is interesting that you say that your monitors have had this also. To me this tends to suggest that in some it may just be a regular RI, not a virus. Before we moved to Perth we were living in Alice Springs. We kept central bearded dragons and never got an RI even though many people on the east coast had problems with this. I guess it is just to do with the fact that Alice Springs has an arid climate and we rarely got humidity (in the winter with minus overnight temps we didn't even get dew).

It is a relief to know that you have never lost any of your shingles and blueys from this. My vet did say that they rarely loose shinglebacks from this bug in captivity. If you get on it quick enough, they will get over it quickly.

Luckily I have never come across this :/ Sounds awful, does anyone know if it affects Westerns and Centrals also?

Unfortunately, yes. The virus can infect any tilique specie. I have heard that the centrals get knocked around the worse from it. It is just something to be aware of

[Helikaon]

the virus and simply a bacterial resp infection show very similar sysmptoms, it seem yours probably only had a bacterial infection which is fixed easily and quicky. But the virus on the other hand is much more nasty can take a few weeks to get over. I have treated it in easterns that have gone though someones collection infecting multiple previously very healthy skinks. I think most of the time we are simply dealing with a normal RI but in a few cases everything has pointed to a virus. Being the rapid decline in health and weight loss, the contageious nature and the fact that in the cases i have seen husbandry has ben well controlled and spot on. I believe a member on here purchased a central blue tongue from a pet shop and ended up needing to treat all his centrals. the Humidifier is simply to act as a mucolytic (to break down the mucous and allow the skink to clear its lungs.) A quick response to antibiotics will usually mean it is a bacterial infection rather then a virus with secondary bacterial infections.

example of the sever symptoms

[Lea]

I have had a few issues with respiratory infections, mostly bacterial, but one with an almost definite, primary viral infection with ongoing, almost continuous bacterial infections. The poor health and lack of ability to fight the infections left her developing oral thrush (fungal infection), further adding to a decline in health. It is difficult to treat with antibiotics, with so many being toxic to skinks, but with the bacterial infections recurring, failure from both baytril and metronidazole, a last ditch attempt was made with amoxicillin. It was a risky venture, since little is known of the adverse effects in lizards, but she would have died without it anyway, so it seemed justified. Remarkably, she made a turn for the better and is now fighting fit, but I have to say, I do not know where she got her last oomph from! I don't remember the dose, but I will aim to find out.

On the subject on recurrence, this is a problem in lizards, particularly with shinglebacks, due to their anatomy and physiology. They have long, almost flat lungs which collapse easily with infections. They do not possess a diaphragm and therefore rely on accessory muscles to inflate the lungs, not on intra-thoracic pressures, like us humans. Their stimulus to breathe is still controlled by the brain, of course, but still succumb quickly to a change of environment, such a moisture and mucus building up in an infection.

The lungs being long and thin, stick together easily, causing the linings to rub and irritate. This causes irritation and inflammation. Damage occurs at a cellular level and if the infection persists, this damage becomes irreversible. The damage turns to scar tissue, rendering that area of the lung useless. The scarring can harden the lung and make it even more difficult for the lizard to inflate the lung, reducing breath effectiveness, their ability to clear usual debris such as dust and snot, increasing risk of infection dramatically without their even initially being a primary pathogen involved!

Shinglebacks tend to cop the worst effects as they are slower moving, take it easy more and don't naturally expectorate mucus as effectively. They are also dry and arid zone lizards, moving themselves out to coastal areas as climates and habitats evolved over the years, but incidences of wild bobtail/shingleback flu are seemingly greater in coastal regions than the arid zones of Australia, where it is virtually zero. (Research documenting this is scarce, so it's more from personal research and observations, not a quotable resource!)

I have had a few others with infections, but did experience a couple of losses along the way. These are mainly wild animals that have come into my care for that reason though and I sincerely think this is due to a delay in appropriate care.

I hope this helps. There are some great replies so far already though. Just a small warning for the nebulised air (humidifier). Be sure to keep your animal warm and at virtually zero humidity for the times outside the humidifier. The moist air helps loosen mucus and increase the chance of them expectorating, but continued humidity can keep the lungs too moist and worsen the issue. Personally, I do not use them in SA as the damp weathers of winter can just make the conditions too moist for them. You may have similar issues in Perth. Again, as you have probably found, it is poorly researched and often trial and error with close observation to see if it will be and effective treatment for each individual.

Lea

[spandangle]

Thanks, LeaBilby & Helikaon for your replies. It is great to hear from experienced keepers on these matters.

I have been a little doubtful about this whole bobtail flu issue and have questioned whether this truly is a unique virus only confined to WA. As we all know, shinglebacks are typically from dry climates with the exception of the coastal regions of southern WA & SA. The coastal areas of southern WA in particular has a very well defined mediterranean climate. This means the summers are practically arid with virtually no rainfall (ideal for shingles), but the winters are wet (not ideal for shingles). It is interesting that the number of wild shingles that are coming down with this flu tends to always be in the early spring straight after the rainy winters. The two of my shingles caught this RI bug only a few days after we had the first bit of rain since October last year.

Happy to say that the little girl is back to her old self and the boy is a lot better, but not quiet 100% yet. His eyes have all cleared up but still has a little bit of a snotty nose.

[acanthurus]

I'm not convinced that this isn't the same (if not very similar) infection that is seen in many of the arid species when they are exposed to damp conditions. I have seen the same symptoms in Varanus bushi, caudolineatus, and tristis, with the caudo's being very susceptible to serious infections. I have seen groups of shingles and centralians that were kept together in less than ideal conditions (pet store) all with the same infection. I have also seen wild animals from the coast to the Perth hills to Kalgoorlie with the same symptoms.

The time course of the infection is what leads me to believe it is viral, often coming on within hours of being exposed to high humidity, and spreading easily amongst a group of animals.

Whilst it is true that they are exposed to these conditons in the wild, most wild shingles are well hunkered down for the winter by now, under areas that remain mostly dry. The only time they are out in the open in humid conditions for any length of time is early spring before it dries out.

Good to hear that your little fellows are doing better:)