What do u think about alleged patternless "Easterns"?

[Dood]

Post removed by Bird_Brain

[acanthurus]

Sean,

I do see your point that the parents superficially look to have features of easterns, but the evidence at hand seems to point otherwise.

I can understand your reluctance to accept this line of thinking as I'm guessing there is a substantial monetary investment in these animals, and once again I'm guessing that their value would likely drop if they were found to be crosses. As pointed out by others you are more than entitled to your opinion. My question for you is though, if you are to sell these as pure bred easterns and if this proves to be wrong when the buyer breeds from them, will there be any compensation?

I guess what I'm asking is given the high price for the animals and the doubts raised, if they are sold as pure bred easterns, will you guarantee their genealogy?

I don't know you, but from what I've seen you strike me as someone who is fairly well regarded in the hobby and have little doubt you are acting in good faith, but we all get it wrong sometimes. (For this reason I also think it's important that posters such as the one directly above this one realise that kind of post is unwarranted and that this thread should be about finding the right outcome and not taking opportunities to mock those who are in all likelihood much more knowledgable than you).

[Dood]

Good point.

Sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet.

I have a friend who invested heavily into "desert" ball pythons - now he cant give his stock away

There are still some people trying to re-coop their money, and some find a sucker, but almost everyone knows its a dead end morph and often fatal to the females and people trying to promote the morph can and have been blacklisted by other breeders.

[SeanUK]

In answer to your question acanthurus there are no guarantees in livestock after 72 hours so no i cant and wont guarantee anything. Also from what i know Bruno may have been mistaken because the original founder animals i am told from good sources originated from easterns now whether or not that line got diluted in the meantime i dont know. My animals came from Germany. Im not going to go on and on in order to justify myself i have no need to do so. They are what they are you either like them or you dont that simple really.

Jeff or David if your interested then just send me an email.

[SeanUK]

This is also scincoides scincoides morph not currently present in Australia.

[acanthurus]

In answer to your question acanthurus there are no guarantees in livestock after 72 hours so no i cant and wont guarantee anything. Also from what i know Bruno may have been mistaken because the original founder animals i am told from good sources originated from easterns now whether or not that line got diluted in the meantime i dont know. My animals came from Germany. Im not going to go on and on in order to justify myself i have no need to do so. They are what they are you either like them or you dont that simple really.

Jeff or David if your interested then just send me an email.

Fair enough,

I think so long as you and the buyer are both aware of this then I don't see any problem with this position.

[Richard.C]

Good sources are the originators of this line,original breeder put a probable ij over 2 pure northerns,sold some babies to bruno and he bred a pr of them that produced the first patternless,that is the most reliable resource there,no guessing off pics,but actual facts from the guys who made this line,i dont get why you ignore that,history of actual animals is way more accurate than guestimates of pics and hearsay,being experienced doesnt compensate for there history,blind freddy can see they arent pure eastern

Please dont tell me that last pic has blood of questionable patternless eastern in it

Theres lots of pure morph aussie animals outside of aus that arent here,no ones denying that,theres also quite a few aussie animals commonly kept outside of aus that we cant keep here or thst have been bred for generations long before commonly bred here,not sure why that gets brought up

End of the day those patternless easterns arent pure,and very likely have zero eastern in them,there not even as pure anything as the famous canadian easterns

[SeanUK]

Sorry Richard but i just dont follow what you cant comprehend.

The facts are Bruno is unsure of the origin.
The original breeder is not the person Bruno acquired them from, they had been passed on.
The photos of the alledged parents look eastern in origin.
I know the original source.
Even another chap on the captivebred forum knows the source states there eastern, look if you dont believe me.

What more evidence do you need maybe if i said they came from Australia but of course they didnt lol. Would you question them if Menno or Peter Ferger were stating the same thing, I guess not.

Anyway this is all irrelevant just enjoy.

[Dood]

Sorry Richard but i just dont follow what you cant comprehend.

The facts are Bruno is unsure of the origin.
The original breeder is not the person Bruno acquired them from, they had been passed on.
The photos of the alledged parents look eastern in origin.
I know the original source.
Even another chap on the captivebred forum knows the source states there eastern, look if you dont believe me.

What more evidence do you need maybe if i said they came from Australia but of course they didnt lol. Would you question them if Menno or Peter Ferger were stating the same thing, I guess not.

Anyway this is all irrelevant just enjoy.

With all these unknowns why not list them as "Tiliqua ? ?" or "unknown Tiliqua" instead of calling them Easterns as that is really the only problem people seem to have.

Not everyone is a purist, I have a mutt myself, and I bet there are breeders who would love to breed weird and wonderful morphs with their mixed up blueys since in my experience the mutts out number the purebreds, and with the Aussie borders closed, it might be a loosing battle to keep the scincoides we have pureblooded and by calling these guys Easterns your just contaminating to gene pool even more.

[Ophidiophile]

With all these unknowns why not list them as "Tiliqua ? ?" or "unknown Tiliqua" instead of calling them Easterns as that is really the only problem people seem to have.

^^^This.

Steve Rousis in the US also has these animals. Guess what he lists them as on his web site? Blue Tongue Skinks (i.e., no taxonomic or locality designation).

[SeanUK]

Im not going to change them just because someone as a problem with them labelled as easterns. Like i said its matter of opinion i know the origin and thats what there are.

Ive seen intermedia hybrids in person and these are nothing like intermedia hybrids. The patternless intermedia have larger heads and are over all much bigger animals. My patternless easterns are only about 12 to 14 inches total length with smaller heads than intermedia.

[Jeff]

I think everyone has had the opportunity to state their opinions now, so I am going to lock this thread to keep it from becoming an eternal argument.