He Ate the Fuzzy!

[Paradon]

Um, U.C. Davis is renowned worldwide as some of the top Vet school probably better than most around the world, and it is one of the best in America. I guess it depends on which vets you ask to, but I've talked to Melissa Kaplan online before about how a lot of people like to talk trash about her and her website, and she simply say there will always be people online who are like that and she said she doesn't care because her website is veterinarian approved. Like she said college professors and Vets tell their student to read her website. And a little background on MK, she has been trained in veterinarian nursing and probably know more about herp than even some vets because of her experience when she used to do reptile rescue rehabbing very sick and unwanted reptiles. She used to have a BTS for a long time from rescue, but it passed on from old age. If you read some her Cyclura and iguana journal she does mention a few time about Sluggo her BTS.

[Katrina]

[Scotts1au]

:wall:

Within reason they can eat just about anything as long they don't eat too much of it and it isn't toxic.

I'd hate to imagine what my blueys eat in their outdoor enclosure

The mice referred to aren't natural food for blueys in Aus, although that doesn't mean much.

Various studies have showed that majority if food consumed by Blotchies is invetrebrates with limited veg material. Easterns more veg material, I assume the same for Northerns. Stumpies predominantly veg material.

I believe that large moths and their larvae are very high in saturated fats without the other nutritional benefits of mice. It should be stated however that pinkies and even fuzzies have limited hard bone development so their Ca content is nowhere near as good as full grown mice.

BTW I don't condone feeding live mice for blueys. It is just unnecessary.

[Herpman]

:wall:

LOL no bloody kidding.

[El Lobo]

I know I have used this quote from the Paul Newman movie Cool Hand Luke before, but....

"What we've got here is failure to communicate... some men you just can't reach."

[Paradon]

Ok! Failure to communicate? And then you go and put words in my mouth like you said I said to feed fuzzies only. I've never said that! I said BTS should be eating 40% animal protein and 60% plants. I have been keeping herp for 10 years now and I've talked to many seasoned herp keepers and including Melissa Kaplan. None of them say fuzzy are bad food for herps that do eat animal protein...at least most with a lot of knowledge about nutrition. Like any other food it is fine in moderation as long as you keep an eye on your BTS weight or whatever herp you are feeding. What I don't understand is you are and other people are willing to feed cat and dog food to your BTS, but why not fuzzies. Whatever the reason is I don't understand. Cats are carnivores and dogs are mostly carnivorous, their food is formulated to meet their requirement, so feeding their food to bluey is like feeding a really fattening fuzzies anyway. Even the lowfat cat and dog food still contain a lot fat because dogs and cats they are carnivores.

[missmacabre]

Like I said. How may BTS in the wild could actually catch a mouse? And just because this Melissa somebody or other said so doesn't make it true. This woman isn't even FROM Australia. I think I'd prefer to listen to the people who know what they are talking about than someone on the other side of the planet that had ONE bts in their care.

[Katrina]

No one is putting words in your mouth.

The failure to communicate etc. came because you either aren't reading our posts very closely or choosing not to answer our questions. Both El Lobo and I asked you where on Kaplan's website she says that mice are a healthier feeder than any other feeder?? Instead of answering specific questions you have just told us repeatedly how Kaplan and U.C.Davis are the best, without showing us information to back up your claims etc.

And none of us ever said that we are willing to feed cat/dog food but not fuzzies - remember, I wrote that I do feed mice but only as very occasional treats. Mismacrabe (sorry if thats spelled wrong) is against feeding mice for personal reasons that have nothing to do with nutrition.

Both Aussies posting on this thread said that mice aren't much of a part of a wild BTS diet - unlike insects, worms and well - whatever else they stumble upon. So if they don't eat much in the wild, how are they healthier than insects in a captive diet?

Regardless, blueys will eat and relish mice and there are so many varieties of diets that will work for them that it doesn't really matter - feed your bluey whatever you feel is best.

I think this thread really isn't getting anywhere so I'll drop the subject now. No one is trying to me mean or anything, we just get the impression that your mind is made up and that you are not open to any other ideas, regardless of the information presented.

[Pesky Fly]

It should also be remembered who was responsible for building Earth. Two mice Frankie and Benjy are part of the pan-dimensional race that commissioned Slatibartfast and the planet Magrathea to create the Earth as a supercomputer successor to Deep Thought. H2G2.

LOL
A hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy fan!!

“WOOT WOOT”

A real frood! I'll bet you know where your towel is.

On this thread about live feeding do you think we should tell them about the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal?

Ummm, DUH!!! XDXD LOL
"Do you know where your spaceship is at?"

[NomadOfTheHills]

I guess it depends on which vets you ask to, but I've talked to Melissa Kaplan online before about how a lot of people like to talk trash about her and her website, and she simply say there will always be people online who are like that and she said she doesn't care because her website is veterinarian approved.

Science Diet dog food is also vet approved.


That said, I agree that mice ARE more nutritious than invertebrates. A 1g pinkie mouse has more vitamins, minerals, and calories than a 1g cricket.
Why can they weigh the same amount? Crickets have an exoskeleton. Pinkies have a lot more water weight as well.

However, this is the point. Mice are very rich in nutrients, which means you don't have to feed nearly as much of them. This is why feeding rodents lead to fat reptiles.

While I doubt a BTS could catch an adult rodent, I can bet they forage for, and devour, entire nests of young birds, rodents, and marsupials.

On a different note, look at BTS dentition. It is NOT the same as primarily carnivorous lizards such as tegus or monitors.

Varanus teeth::


Tiliqua teeth::


What can you infer from this difference in morphology? BTS have evolved to eat things requiring crushing. What requires crushing? Berries, fruit, insects, mollusks, succulents. These are the things I base my BTS diet on.

[Paradon]

Thank you Nomad for clarifying that for them. Note: I didn't say to feed the BTS as much fuzzies as possible. I merely said it is good as part of a varied diet and if done right, it can be healthy for bluey since in captivity we are only limited to a few prey items, so maybe they don't come across a new born mice or birds often wild, but it is still a good to feed them since it is more nutritious and with the stress of captivity they need good nutrition. This is captivity not the wild, so we are left a few options. Feeding wild snails sounds like a good idea, but I've heard often they could be contaminated with fertilizers and snail poisons that people put out to kill snails, and wild snails can harbor parasites. At least in the U.S. it's not as clean as in Australia and Canada so we have to worry about that. And normally, in the wild while they have parasites, BTS do not get stress out as often as captivity, so in captivity you may fine parasite may bloom out of control if you happened to get a wild caught one somehow or if you are feeding wild preys. Even the most well kept lizards are still stress out in captivity, so it is important that your husbandry is spot on. I do sometime feed cat food to my bluey, but alternate between fuzzies, crickets and superworms, so he gets as much variety as possible. With any animal protein food, people have to watch the weight of their bluey. Everything in moderation is the key.

[El Lobo]

As one of "them" who has been clarified by Nomad's post could I make a few points. I can't see where anyone has dismissed the nutritional advantage of fuzzies over other protein source. What has been disputed is the need for much of this source of protein together with the high fat content and low Calcium.

You refer to snails as a good idea but are concerned about snail baits etc. There have been several threads and miscellaneous posts about how to de-tox snails.

I, as one of "them", have been accused of feeding dog and cat food. For the record, I have to this point never feed either, my reluctance does not have anything to do with the value of these types of food sources. I also don't feed crickets. I have never fed a pinky or fuzzy and cannot foresee doing so. Others choose to, that's fine but I will always vehemently oppose live feeding of them. On that I believe I'm supported by Ms Kaplan et al.

So far my diet lacking all the above mentioned has raised 2 blotchies from 46gms to 600gms in 1 year. Empiricism does have its place.

Nomad, I don't want to open up a second front with you but its highly unlikely blueys "forage for, and devour, entire nests of young birds, rodents, and marsupials."

Blueys are not climbers (although trying telling that to mine) and as such don't have access to bird nests. Most of our ground nesting birds have become extinct thanks to feral cats. I not sure where this notion of Australia having rodent nests aplenty comes from. We are, in the main, a clean race. Marsupials by definition carry their young in pouches and don't have nests. There are 2 exceptions that I can find. They are the Numbat which carry their young on the outside attached to teats. The other is the Phascogales which has very limited distribution and nests its young in trees.

I am a novice when it comes to blueys but I have been living in their environment all of my life. We are regularly visited by blotchies in the wild state and although we don't have most of the food sources described in care sheets they still choose to live and breed here. Many other Aussie members also have this experience.

Paradon, my major gripe is that you come with a predilection determined by a limited reference source. I think all here have only been saying to keep an open mind. By all means debate your point, that is a fundamental of a forum. But also don't adopt the attitude that anyone who disagrees with you is a subversive. If you have a contrary point of view elucidate it and back it with evidence/research. This is a standard means to have credibility.

[missmacabre]

Paradon why do you keep saying BTS in captivity are stressed out? Yeah, maybe if they are wild caught but if they were born and raised in captivity they don't know any different, so no I would not say they are stressed out.

It seems you're saying a lot of things that aren't correct just for the mere sake of arguing the matter.

And if you had done a little research (apart from that ONE site you keep harping on about) you would see you can detox snails so they are safe to feed to your bts.

[Paradon]

Paradon, my major gripe is that you come with a predilection determined by a limited reference source. I think all here have only been saying to keep an open mind. By all means debate your point, that is a fundamental of a forum. But also don't adopt the attitude that anyone who disagrees with you is a subversive. If you have a contrary point of view elucidate it and back it with evidence/research. This is a standard means to have credibility.

I don't know what mean by me being subversive, but it seems you are the one thinking that I am. I'm just trying to clarifying and get by point across as politely as possible. I have been keeping herp for many years and I am just sharing my experience. I am not trying to implying anything about anyone, but for some reason you seem to think so. My source is not just from anapsid.org but from many other long time herp keepers who have been keeping herps before the internet was invented, and they came up with ways to raise their reptiles only by experience, and I'm just trying to share my point of view. It's Ok to disagree with me, but don't assume that somehow I'm trying force my view on anyone. I never said anything about you or people who disagree with me. All I did was debate until you said something about me.

[Paradon]

Paradon why do you keep saying BTS in captivity are stressed out? Yeah, maybe if they are wild caught but if they were born and raised in captivity they don't know any different, so no I would not say they are stressed out.

It seems you're saying a lot of things that aren't correct just for the mere sake of arguing the matter.

And if you had done a little research (apart from that ONE site you keep harping on about) you would see you can detox snails so they are safe to feed to your bts.

Yes, reptiles in captivity are always going to be stressed out whether they are captive born or wild caught. We can never fully duplicate how they live in the wild and the condition aren't always going to be right no matter how hard we try. The only difference is captive born adapt better to captivity and are probably less stressed, but they still are.

I still wouldn't trust wild snail. Even if their is a way to detox them they still have parasites. Their is always a greater risk of parasite infection with wild caught preys.

[Katrina]

Yes, reptiles in captivity are always going to be stressed out whether they are captive born or wild caught. We can never fully duplicate how they live in the wild and the condition aren't always going to be right no matter how hard we try.

Personally, I'd be stressed in the wild. Lots of things trying to eat me, no certain meals, temperatures and weather fluctuates wildly... yeah, that would be stressful.

This is painful...

[missmacabre]

Lol captive bred animals are not stressed. They don't know any different. Where is your information to prove that they are stressed? Yeah my rats are really stressed when they run and play and chase my hand around

[Brett]

Guys ive been reading this post and ive noticed this hasnt come up yet.. But to all those people who dont feed mice because its cruel but instead feed insects and pass judgement on the people, who do feed mice.. I was just wondering... What gives us the right to choose what animal lives or dies (i personally have not fed anything live yet... mainly coz my bluey is quite..erm lazy...) but really if you want to say "dont feed mice because its cruel" then you should not feed anything live because it is just as cruel. Unless you are completely against live feeders THEN it'd be fair to argue your anti mice feedings. But then again this comes back to the point MissMacabre brought about only saveing animals that we think are cool.

Yeaaaah Take that

[El Lobo]

Interesting point Brett but there is a difference between live feeding vertebrates with a central nervous system through the spine to the brain and invertebrates with a rudimentary system of ganglia.

Of the contributors to this thread I think that only one has expressed an aversion to feeding mice per se. However, the live feeding of mice has not gained support. In fact, it has generally been deemed unnecessary. I have had rabbits as pets for many years but if you search the off topic threads you will find snake owners feed rabbits. I can't reconcile it but I know it will continue. Humane killing and no live feeding is the best I can hope for.

The fundamental is more about the necessity of feeding mice at all or being humane if it is.

[Katrina]

Guys ive been reading this post and ive noticed this hasnt come up yet.. But to all those people who dont feed mice because its cruel but instead feed insects and pass judgement on the people, who do feed mice.. I was just wondering... What gives us the right to choose what animal lives or dies (i personally have not fed anything live yet... mainly coz my bluey is quite..erm lazy...) but really if you want to say "dont feed mice because its cruel" then you should not feed anything live because it is just as cruel. Unless you are completely against live feeders THEN it'd be fair to argue your anti mice feedings. But then again this comes back to the point MissMacabre brought about only saveing animals that we think are cool.

Yeaaaah Take that

Umm... I don't think that many are saying that its morally wrong to feed mice - I'm certainly not. I just don't believe that mice are a much healthier protein source than other forms. I mentioned in a post a while back that I do feed the occasional mouse but they are always FT, and yes I feed insects live. My reasoning is that a live fuzzie could bite and hurt my blueys, so FT is safer and yes, probably less cruel to the mouse. I personally was never arguing the moral judgment side of things at all, and I don't think many were.

Any protein source we feed our blueys will have come from a live animal at one time, whether it is chicken, beef, mice, insects or catfood (well, some brands are questionable!! ). I do agree with El Lobo though, that an insect will not be able to perceive fear and possibly pain the same as a mouse would.