What do u think about alleged patternless "Easterns"?

[kl]

It's a tricky thing when discussing morphs. People are either on one side of the fence or the other. A lot of purists hate them. The snake morph people love them. I like looking at them. I'm not against people who breed them. I just would rather have normal color phase Westerns. Centrilians, Blotched, and Shinglebacks.

KL

[SeanUK]

Totally agree Kim

[Richard.C]

Can somebody from Australia please let us know if there is such a morph available in Australia?

No none like this in australia,only reduced pattern morphs,we can only keep australian species

Sean,eye bands are found on some ij and some northerns also appear to have faint eye bands

When the original breeder of these guys sold them off,specimens ended up all over the place,i believe theres a few of them in the states as well,i dont even think bruno,original breeder of this form ever had easterns

If your interested theres a few threads on them in here,older threads may not have pics anymore though,i believe theres some u tube vids if adult ones breeding to

I have nothing against hybrids,just wish people would honestly represent them,meaning probably whom sold them to sean

Theres no denying these skinks look pretty cool

[Ophidiophile]

I feel compelled to make a few points:

1. I am NOT against morphs. Anyone who looks at my photo gallery on my site will see that. This thread is not about morphs -- it's about taxonomy and possible inter-specific (or sub-specific depending on what you believe) hybridization.

2. I'm actually not even against hybridization to produce interesting domestic lines as long as the animals produced are represented as what they are and there is no chance of them getting back into the wild. That said, I would not do it myself (mostly because after animals change hands a few times, recollection about the pedigree is usually lost).

3. After seeing the first ad which did not have photos, I emailed Sean and asked for photos and price because I seriously considered buying them if they were what I hoped they were. Sean was kind enough to send the photos in email. I would NEVER post those photos here or anywhere else without permission.

4. When the photos appeared on Fauna, I LINKED to them here to get others' opinions on what exactly they were. We have done this many times on this site with animals in Ben Siegel's ads and others, asking for opinions on sex, species/subspecies, or even to comment on its appearance. This is a fair, legitimate use.

All this said, sorry this thread has taken an acrimonious turn - let's move on...

[SeanUK]

Also i would like to make another valid point just because you experts say this morph does not exist in Australia doesnt mean it is not Australian for example 15 years ago i went to visit a breeder in Germany there in his basement i saw my first leucistic Varanus kingorum of which he had been keeping for many years without people knowing other than is close friends in the hobby. As far as im aware this morph was not in Australia at that time.
Also the reduced pattern eye band easterns that Joe Ball produces ive already seen adult specimens in Japan. Some Australian snakes morphs are only present or have be created outside Australia.
Yes i know about Bruno's thread as i read the forums but dont generally post.
One thing i can say for sure there is definately no gigas in these. They do not even resemble gigas in anyway shape or form. The tail length measurements are the same as scincoides.
I really like the animals so im quite happy for them to stay in my collection.

[Dakota]

If you are dead set on calling these full Easterns, make a Pedigree and prove us wrong..

[donkeybuff]

Sean, I don't believe that your intent is to deceive anyone as to the identity of these animals. However, I do believe that you are mistaken regarding their identity. These look exactly like the existing NorthernxIJ line of patternless. If you look the patternless Eastern line that Joe Ball (in Australia) is developing, they do not look like these animals at all. I also don't believe that a fully developed patternless line of easterns would just pop up suddenly without anyone knowing about it either. It doesn't make sense that they would suddenly pop up out of nowhere like this.

[Fatal_S]

Definite-easterns again. Why is it always easterns?

*Wanders away mumbling*

[Richard.C]

The kings rocks i dont believe there are any of that morph here,just the normals are uncommon enough

The reduced eye band easterns are outside aus and have been for donkeys years,there more common than the eye band ones,there in the states to and i assume europe

I believe they are intermidia x ij

Some ij are very scincoides like in influence,short tailed,some even with quite distintive eye banding,if u cross a scincoides looking one over an intermedia,its most likely going to produce a scincoides type looking litter

From what ive seen of adult ones they even have that intermedia build,big solid heads compared to easterns,ive seen some solid headed easterns in my time but they never had that shovel headed northern male look

[Dakota]

Here are some that look a lot like yours, and some that are a stepping stone to the line..


Funny thing is, they realize they are mutts.

[Scincoides]

Hybrids or not, they are some of the coolest looking skinks out there. Very unique.

[Seadation]

Curious to what the asking price was/is if someone doesn't want to post it you can pm it to me.

[SeanUK]

These are the original parents to the patternless. They look like easterns to me?

[SeanUK]

Sometimes not everything is clear black and white or in text books. Ive learned this from 30 years of reptile breeding. In which time i have kept and bred some of the rarer species in the hobby when experts said it cant be done.

[SeanUK]

Also the price i offer these for is not set in stone. I am open to negotiations and maybe partial trades.
I will consider all Australian Tiliqua apart from intermedia.

[xxmonitorlizardxx]

Sean, the parents do look like Northern x IJ hybrids. If they were easterns the eye-bands would be more visible and the pattern on the back would look different.

[SeanUK]

I appreciate your idea but not all easterns have eye bands.

[Richard.C]

Sean,there offspring of the northern crosses,but yes there the parents of the original patternless,bruno bought that pair off a guy who bred what he believes was a male ij to 2 pure northerns

I can give u a link to a thread on a forum with bruno and the chap whom sold those adults to bruno,in that thread someone else says he swears they are pure easterns,but bruno and original breeder that produced that pr u pictured say that pr are from an ij male over 2 pure northerns,and that pr,2 of the resulting offspring produced the first pattenless

If u search on google for patternless easterns,look under captivebredforum,theres a thread going on about this very subject,with the 2 guys that produced this line,including pics of the parents that u just showed,those parents were the result of what the original breeder says was an ij male over 2 northern females,zero eastern

[SeanUK]

Yes Richard i already know about the thread on the captivebred forum but me and Gazz from the forum think they are eastern in origin. Of course we could be wrong though its a matter of opinion.

[Jeff]

Sean, if your opinion is that the skinks you pictured last are T.s.s. based on their appearance, I won't argue with you about that. Like you said, with nothing to go on but the appearance of an animal, all we have is our opinion, and I can understand how some people could come to the conclusion that these animals are T.s.s based solely on the appearance of those two skinks.

The thing is, the origin of those two skinks is known, and I thought that it had been clearly explained by the person who produced them. It has been admitted to, that those skinks are the result of an IJ x northern cross. Again though, it is a matter of who you believe, and I certainly don't claim that I was there when any of these animals were produced.

As far as price goes, I will never critisize anyone for asking whatever they want for any animal. I may express that it is way more than I would be willing to pay for the animal, but everyone has the right to ask as much as they want. I have definitely seen animals sell for way more than I would pay for them. The perceived monetary value of any animal will vary from person to person.

I apologize if this thread came across as an attack on you or your animals. It was not intended to be anything more than a discussion about some unusual Tiliqua. This is one that has come up a number of times over the last few years.