I.D and sex my 'female merauke' please :)

[El Lobo]

Ok, I have a question about the ID-ing for all of you and especially,Norm.

I've seen pics coming through on facebook and there was this one guy who just said:
T ssp. Papua

Is this then better to say, instead of the discussion about IJ x Merauke?

ps: kind of funny to read the offtopic part

I don't get involved in the identifying game as the only BTS I see are nigrolutea and the occasional scincoides.scincoides. I find it mildly entertaining reading the arguing about whether it is Merauke or IJ because geographically they are the same place. Merauke is a province of (depending on your geopolitics) Irian Jaya or West Papua. Maybe those referring to T ssp. Papua are of the view that Irian Jaya is really West Papua.

[Bluish]

Ok, I have a question about the ID-ing for all of you and especially,Norm.

I've seen pics coming through on facebook and there was this one guy who just said:
T ssp. Papua

Is this then better to say, instead of the discussion about IJ x Merauke?

ps: kind of funny to read the offtopic part

NO!!
Meraukes are a defined sub species of T. gigas.
Irian Jayas are undescribed but when they are described they MIGHT be placed in the T. scincoides camp.
Referring to them with a made up name further confuses the situation and doesn't state what they really are.
Gaboon vipers and rhino vipers are separate species in the genus Bitis. They naturally intergrade and occasionally wild caught specimens are offered on importers lists. They are always referred to as hybrid crosses or sometimes "gabinos" so that it's known they are hybrids.
To my eyes Meraukes and I.J.s are very distinct looking animals. All of these "in betweeners" should be listed as hybrids or natural intergrades.

[Bluish]

I don't get involved in the identifying game as the only BTS I see are nigrolutea and the occasional scincoides.scincoides. I find it mildly entertaining reading the arguing about whether it is Merauke or IJ because geographically they are the same place. Merauke is a province of (depending on your geopolitics) Irian Jaya or West Papua. Maybe those referring to T ssp. Papua are of the view that Irian Jaya is really West Papua.

Yes it's unfortunate that they are both named after geographic locations but that doesn't change the fact that they are obviously different animals. If they were named shinglebacks and blotched skinks it might force us to think about the labelling a little more carefully

[El Lobo]

Highland and lowland blotched are both classified T.nigrolutea but to those who have them they are distinctly different. There are differences between locales e.g. highlands from Victoria and those from the Blue Mountains of NSW. T.s.scincoides also vary significantly depending on locale so are usually differentiated by form.

[Katrina]

Ok, I have a question about the ID-ing for all of you and especially,Norm.

I've seen pics coming through on facebook and there was this one guy who just said:
T ssp. Papua

Is this then better to say, instead of the discussion about IJ x Merauke?

ps: kind of funny to read the offtopic part

In my opinion, it would be MUCH better to say T. gigas spp or perhaps explain that it looks like a variant and show characteristics of both Meruake and IJ, rather than say IJ x Meruake. When saying IJ x Merauke, we are implying that it is a hybrid or intergrade - that someone took one Merauke and one IJ and bred them, producing mixed babies. This is most likely NOT the case in 95%+ of these animals we are seeing - this is most likely a natural variant found in the wild, that we are suddenly seeing in the pet market because they are harvesting blueys from different areas. I would much rather we err on the side of caution and explain that we don't know. And until people can go in there and collect enough information (and likely ID other subspecies that are not recognized right now) to say that we are seeing an IJ x Merauke or newer Merauke, in my opinion, is kind of ridiculous. We are implying that we have a level of understanding that we clearly do not have.

Just my thoughts... I hate seeing new owners get hung up on the IDing thinking they have a mix or 'mutt' or whatever.

[Richard.C]

Part of why ij arent described is they are so variable,science actually has them closest to gigas,but acknowledge some have a scincoides look more than gigas,highly variable,hence currently not formerlly scientificlly recognised,theres some good info on it in the bluey bible

Speaking of variants in a species,eg highlands and lowlands blotcheds,another on would be the northerns,from the classics to the kimberleys

[dannyboy]

I hate seeing new owners get hung up on the IDing thinking they have a mix or 'mutt' or whatever.

I'm not hung up on the IDing, I thought she was an Aussie BTS for the first 12 months haha my main wonder was for if I intended to try and breed in the future.

[Richard.C]

For breeding best bet is to find another similar one

Yours is a very nice looking example,and in top shape,definatly dont think of it as a mutt,a cross ect ect

The prob with folk thinking that is they will breed to ones that look different and if science ever finally works these ij,s out they could be different enough for different classification,but lost to captivity from being bred to different looking ij,s

[xxmonitorlizardxx]

For breeding best bet is to find another similar one

[Katrina]

I hate seeing new owners get hung up on the IDing thinking they have a mix or 'mutt' or whatever.

I'm not hung up on the IDing, I thought she was an Aussie BTS for the first 12 months haha my main wonder was for if I intended to try and breed in the future.

That wasn't intended at you directly at all - it's a common question and because the site is so against hybrids (specifically hybrids in North America that are 'diluting' what good Australian genes we have left available to us) it is sometimes disappointing for newer members to hear 'hybrid' or 'cross'. I know when I first got my blueys and asked what kind they were (now it would be a fairly unanimous 'newer merauke' ID), and I had people saying IJ, Merauke, Indo, and all sorts of hybrids or integrades it was quite disheartening. I felt like my blueys were mutts and not pure, the kind that shouldn't ever be bred. Now I realize that they are just some sort of variant. Like Richard said - if you want to breed, just try to pair them with very similar looking mates.

[kenn]

Thanks for all your answers.

I think it would be a good job to make a database like we do for Testudo sp.
In my last year as a vet, I studied the ways of ID-ing them, and came with 3 tests:
- 1 chipping them, so you can track down your animal
- 2 working with haplotypes, so you can narrow down the (sub)species by working on DNA levels (with mouthswabs or blood)
- 3 paternity test I develloped

Combining these three, we can stop illegal trafficking of Testudo sp.


It shouldn't be hard to find DNA markers in Blues.
With a simple mouthswab and some labo work, you can get an accurate ID of yoour skink.
No?