New Cage!

[ManahShepard]

Thank you James, I was not sure how to put my opinion but you basically said what I meant by them being /opportunistic/. Skink's have tiny limbs that are not that strong, and being as I own a bearded dragon I noticed the difference.

I'm also happy you like his new home, he got a comfy new bed and he lays in it now and again. Right now, he's sleeping.

Though I do appreciate debates, etc, I did not intend my post to turn into that. I just like keeping James and some people informed on how he's doing. And though I do appreciate advice from people who know more than I do considering skinks - I know I don't appreciate information being - in a sense - forced upon me. Lol. Because that's how this entire thread has felt.

With that said, I'll be posting more pics/vids of Marbles, but I'm not responding to this thread any longer.

Sorry. :/

[xxmonitorlizardxx]

Anything made indirectly by James is beautiful

[Richard.C]

James brings up a good point,they like security,a hide that touches there whole body,a tight fitting hide,
Hence why they burrow so to speak into loose substrate

Look at the hides we offer them,alot dont offer that,and dont offer it in many areas either

Some of mine on newspaper or carpet when the use the hides,actually still go under the newspaper and carpet,loose substrate offers that they can hide in it,like a cage sized hide area

Now for an option or 2,if you use carpet ect type substrates,u could supply hides containg deep substate to offer that security,you can always section areas of differing substrates to leaving food and water areas bare

I like the kiss principal,but to still offer options

[James Wilson]

James brings up a good point,they like security,a hide that touches there whole body,a tight fitting hide,
Hence why they burrow so to speak into loose substrate

Look at the hides we offer them,alot dont offer that,and dont offer it in many areas either

Some of mine on newspaper or carpet when the use the hides,actually still go under the newspaper and carpet,loose substrate offers that they can hide in it,like a cage sized hide area

Now for an option or 2,if you use carpet ect type substrates,u could supply hides containg deep substate to offer that security,you can always section areas of differing substrates to leaving food and water areas bare

I like the kiss principal,but to still offer options

Not a bad Idea at all, and well said as well. Thanks Richard.

[El Lobo]

It may be the definition of burrowing is becoming a little blurred in this thread.

There is the burrowing in their substrate we see with our skinks when they have sufficient depth made available. This is the behaviour I have been referring to and submitting pictures of in my observations of wild Blotchies. My experience of these wild specimens is that they will burrow into soft surface material if available in lieu of trying to escape by running. Those I have picked up off hard surfaces such as roads will run as the surface will not allow burrowing. On a few occasions when cutting long grass in my backyard I have almost hit Blotchies because they don't flee, they try to burrow down deeper into the grass and it is only by seeing the grass move I have been able to avoid hitting them. I have a few areas of my yard with longer grass to allow the skinks to have a relatively safe place to brumate over winter. The young male I referred to in an earlier post had found a firewood log as a shelter and I have no doubt he intended to use this for his winter brumation. I don't know exactly when he left this shelter as we left it in place for five months before lifting it to find him gone. It would have offered him protection from predators (especially cats) because of the weight of the log.

Then there is the burrow which is purposely built by some animals as the centrepiece of their existence. One example I can cite with some experience is the Funnelweb spider with which I also share my property. The female lives almost her entire life of as long as twenty years in the burrow she has dug, including raising her young in it; only emerging to seek sustenance and in the breeding season to seek a male. Skinks to the best of my knowledge do not fall into this category with the exception of T. adelaidensis which lives in a burrow, but not necessarily one dug by itself. It is believed they take over a burrow dug by trapdoor or wolf spiders.

http://www.publish.csiro.au/paper/WR02087.htm
http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bin/s ... on_id=1270

Prey animals because of their genetic programming don't always display outward signs of anxiety. It is not technically possible to declare such animals as being stress free without knowing their blood cortisol level.

[James Wilson]

It may be the definition of burrowing is becoming a little blurred in this thread.

Agreed. You hit the nail on the head with that one. I really think that is it in a nutshell.

[Richard.C]

X 2

[Spankenstyne]

What I find amusing is that there really isn't any argument here. Any perceived dispute seems to be regarding differing definitions of "burrowing", which really from all sides holds merit depending how you choose to look at it.

There's pretty much a consensus agreement regarding substrates, just worded differently, which all seems to point out that "there's more than one way to skin a cat".
For what it's worth and it may differ depending where one lives and availability, but "Aspen" is also available in several forms including a very small chip form, which is much easier to pass if ingested than the larger chips or long slivered shredded form. The Nepco brand small chips are my personal preference.
Ultimately though the decision is up the keeper how they choose to keep their animal. We're the ones who have to live with the decisions and the repercussions of those decisions so nobody is really going to fault anyone for using a cautious approach.

Manah, you have no reason to be "sorry" there's been some great discussion and points made on this thread that can be of great educational use to folks looking to make their own decisions on what to do for the floor of their cages, along with some insight into their natural behaviours. Hopefully you'll continue to participate.

[Spankenstyne]

Blue-tongues will often burrow in their substrate if given the opportunity (especially when kept in a glass tank). They do this because they feel exposed and it is the easiest way to get some cover, and out of sight from potential dangers. Blue-tongues are not primarily burrowing lizards by nature; rather they are opportunistic shelter seekers that do not require a substrate to burrow in if given appropriate hides and an enclosure that provides them with some sense of security.

Quick question for James if I can pick your brain a moment regarding this statement?
Have you found that even with appropriate snug hides that they will still at times choose to bury themselves in substrate, especially when resting/sleeping if given the opportunity? I keep my Northerns in 4'x2'x18"tall custom wood & black coroplast enclosures so there is only an exposed glass front & have bark hides, logs, and tile for hiding. They seem to act as if they feel secure, very curious and confident with no obvious scared or defensive behaviours but will still choose at times to burrow or partially bury themselves even while in/under their various hides. While we know they don't require substrate to burrow in, do you feel there may be benefit to creatively offering areas of opportunity for them to do so (as suggested by Richard) even if just used as habitat enrichment?

While I'm sort of an old timer when it comes to keeping & breeding other reptiles (since the 80's) I have only been working with skinks for a few years now and on a small scale so I can't really speak from a large enough sample size to notice if it's the norm or just the way mine might happen to behave given the conditions provided. I'm a big believer in providing options so I wonder if there may be some added security benefits to allowing them a place to burrow, even if it's not seen as a necessity?

[James Wilson]

Blue-tongues will often burrow in their substrate if given the opportunity (especially when kept in a glass tank). They do this because they feel exposed and it is the easiest way to get some cover, and out of sight from potential dangers. Blue-tongues are not primarily burrowing lizards by nature; rather they are opportunistic shelter seekers that do not require a substrate to burrow in if given appropriate hides and an enclosure that provides them with some sense of security.

Quick question for James if I can pick your brain a moment regarding this statement?
Have you found that even with appropriate snug hides that they will still at times choose to bury themselves in substrate, especially when resting/sleeping if given the opportunity? I keep my Northerns in 4'x2'x18"tall custom wood & black coroplast enclosures so there is only an exposed glass front & have bark hides, logs, and tile for hiding. They seem to act as if they feel secure, very curious and confident with no obvious scared or defensive behaviours but will still choose at times to burrow or partially bury themselves even while in/under their various hides. While we know they don't require substrate to burrow in, do you feel there may be benefit to creatively offering areas of opportunity for them to do so (as suggested by Richard) even if just used as habitat enrichment?

While I'm sort of an old timer when it comes to keeping & breeding other reptiles (since the 80's) I have only been working with skinks for a few years now and on a small scale so I can't really speak from a large enough sample size to notice if it's the norm or just the way mine might happen to behave given the conditions provided. I'm a big believer in providing options so I wonder if there may be some added security benefits to allowing them a place to burrow, even if it's not seen as a necessity?

I think that this is something that is just in their nature. They tend to tuck in under leaf litter when given the opportunity. Do they need to do this in captivity? No they do not need to. Is there some positive benifit? That depends, but I think there is. Do benifits outweigh the risks of injestion? For me, at this time the answer is no, but that really is a question that is for each keeper to answer for themselfs.

[Emz3]

I just wanted to say, as a new BTS owner, I have found this thread incredibly worth while. I rescued my two BTS from a client of mine that was not caring for them. They had been on a mulch substrate and then on ground walnut substrate. One of my two skinks did get impacted and after a warm soak in the tub she passed urates and then two massive turds full of mulch and ground walnut. So in my short period of time as a skink owner, I think at least one if not both of my skinks are predisposed to ingesting substrate and I, like the original poster just thinks it is not worth the risk! I use reptile carpet and have been very happy with it. I have lots of hides in my 75G tank. Some big, some small. I used to work at an animal hospital and I know how much a surgery like that would cost and right now, I can think of many other things I rather spend my money on! Everyone - thanks for all the great info!

[critterguy]

Its interesting James that you've seen so much ingestion of aspen. Do you think it is due to skinks that are not raised on fluffy aspen ingesting it as novelty? that is...this would not be a big issue with skinks raised on aspen.

In the caresheet it claims newsprint is not a good substrate due to the ink staining skink feet and drying them out. Clearly you havent seen this problem either. I'd imagine with newsprint they would tend to walk through their droppings and smear them all over though.

[Richard.C]

No matter the substrate you use the buggers walk through there poop,food and water,the excell at it right after a clean,lol

The main issue with newspaper is no nail wear,but u can add flat basking rockes ect to help there

[Richard.C]

Weeded the blotchie cage yesterdsy arvo,under the long grass and in the spiky stuff that falls in cage i came across ten alpines,in a bunch,7 piled up and another 3 with in 20 cm

20120923_165801.jpg

[critterguy]

No matter the substrate you use the buggers walk through there poop,food and water,the excell at it right after a clean,lol

The main issue with newspaper is no nail wear,but u can add flat basking rockes ect to help there

No nail wear with aspen either.

IME aspen since it is fluffy sticks to, covers, and dries out the droppings...so they are not as likely to get smeared.

[LarissaLurid]

And I feel repti-carpet will keep him healthy and happy.

I don't want to enter a debate into anything about substrate in this comment, but I will say that I don't like repti-carpet because it harbors TONS of bacteria. Unless it can be put in the washing machine (which maybe they can, I've never used it) to clean them thoroughly, I wouldn't use it for that reason.

[Rhianimal]

And I feel repti-carpet will keep him healthy and happy.

I don't want to enter a debate into anything about substrate in this comment, but I will say that I don't like repti-carpet because it harbors TONS of bacteria. Unless it can be put in the washing machine (which maybe they can, I've never used it) to clean them thoroughly, I wouldn't use it for that reason.

Proper repti-carpet can be put in the washing machine. When I had used it before I had 3 pieces cut to fit the tank, and just swapped them out weekly. Spot clean daily and give the carpet a spray of some kind of safe antimicrobial stuff, or vinegar, and then wash and dry.

(I didn't use this for a BTS but I don't see why that can't work).

[saisaac]

Just thought I would put in a few remarks here.

I have long pondered whether a "naturalistic" or "sterile" environment is best for captive reptiles. U have raised a few different species over the years and have come to believe that it in part depends on the species and particular individual animal involved. For example, a few tears back I rescued a bearded dragon who had lost part of its tail and was impacted with calci sand. She nearly died from the impact ion, but eventually pulled through after days and days of multiple warm baths. The fecal matter consisted mostly of sand. She at another time became impacted with walnut shells after I tried that as a bedding on the advice of a zoology student. She never dug, borrowed or did anything with the substrate anyways and bear dies are known to be at risk for impaction due to a kink in their intestines (due skunks have this kink?). So I ruled it an unnecessary risk and used slate tile for the rest of her life.

From everything I have read both here and else where, skunks are burrowers and in general much hardier animals. I started off a few weeks ago using aspen mixed with coconut fiber but quickly got rid if the ecoearth because the substrate was sticking around his nose and mouth. I have had no problems with that with aspen. My skink is always digging and burrowing and roaming through his fake plants and log. I wouldn't dream of taking something away that he clearly enjoys because there is a slight impaction risk. That would be like not allowing a kid to play because he might trip and they themselves.

Those that do want to provide a safe sterile environment might consider putting a bunch of hanging plants on the ground in the corners or under the hides. My skink loves burrowing through those and they should be risk free.

[saisaac]

Sorry for some strange spelling in the above post. The autocorrect on my tablet changed some of the words.