Diet and dog food discussion - Split from Conflicting Advice

[655321]

Thank you Jeff, I was just going to say that! The dead animals skinks stumble upon and eat in the wild are going to be FULL of various types of bacteria, that animals feces (especially if the skink chews on the intestines) and feces of other animals that may have stumbled upon it first, especially birds and bird feces are full of all kinds of awful bacteria and parasites. Any insects on the dead animal that the skink may eat are going to be covered in and full of bacteria and possibly parasites. And depending on where the skink is and how close to humans it is there may also be pollutants and pesticides. I've heard of people finding skinks eating mice and other small animals around their homes that may have ingested poison and who knows what else. Might there be bacteria and feces in the left over cow parts in dog food? Yes. But it's been boiled away. Dog food is cleaner and safer than some random dead animal out in the wild somewhere. Blueys are "ground-foraging omnivores, feeding on a wide variety of insects, gastropods, flowers, fruits and berries." Insects and gastropods in the wild are both coverd in and full of bacteria and parasites...and feces! I'm just finding a hard time understanding your argument. Do I agree that slaughterhouses are awful? Yes. But they are never going away and are probably never going to change and the fact of the matter is that dog food isn't all that bad! The fact that so many skink owners are willing to do the research and come to this forum and try to figure out the best diet they possibly can for their skink is amazing! That can't be said for many other types of animals. I don't know how many times I've heard the story of "I only feed my bearded dragon romaine and crickets and it seemed to be just find then one day it died and I don't know why". Including dog food is an easy, economical, and healthy way to care for a skink especially for beginners and people who only have one skink and especially. And obviously it's great for people who have lots of skinks and for those who breed them. MANY people have tried both diets, raw and prepared meat and dog food, and the evidence shows that dog food works great if not better! Like you said, people can feed them whatever they want and they're going to. You can feed your skinks whatever you want and no one is judging you for that. I applaud you for the diet you feed your skinks. But, at least to me, you seem to be turning down your nose at those of us that use dog food. As long as the skink is happy and HEALTHY and lives a long, wonderful life free of health problems and vet visits...does it really matter?

"Their diet consists of plant matter and small animals. That can be beetles, caterpillars, crickets, snails and even other small lizards. Anything they can get hold of will do. But they are not very fast, so they usually eat slower critters. They are very partial to slugs and snails. Oh, and they steal dog food..."

See, even wild skinks like dog food!

[El Lobo]

hurricanejen bluetongues are not varanids.

The above is probably the most pertinent point of the thread.

The continual theme of comparing monitors to BTS is comparing apples and oranges. Different species, different behavioural patterns, different dietary needs, different dentition, different claws and the differences go on. I don't have much knowledge of monitors at all but I have seen a fair few Lace Monitors, the odd Parentie and plenty of bluetongues in their natural environment. The most glaring difference to the untrained eye is speed; Blueys are pedestrian but those monitors can really move. This to me suggests they have differing metabolisms so different dietary requirements.

Hurricanejen - you make much reference to the state of slaughterhouses. Is your knowledge of them and their practices first hand? I would be appalled if the picture you paint is correct. There are stringent guidelines in place for the healthy conduct of abattoirs in western countries and most all of the standards have been set by relevant U.S. authorities. No diseased animal should ever be in the food chain. In fact, all veterinary drugs have a withholding period from the date of the last use until the animal can be presented for slaughter.

There is a lot of fuss and bother about by-products being unsuitable for pet consumption. Does everyone know how jelly is made?

[Alioop]

From: http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/Res ... 047111.htm


"The Act does require that pet foods, like human foods, be safe to eat, produced under sanitary conditions, contain no harmful substances, and be truthfully labeled."

[655321]

Does everyone know how jelly is made?

Great point! There are countless food products, cosmetics, and drugs made from all those animal parts we don't like to eat. Bones, blood serum, fat, hormones...the list goes on. Anyone wearing leather? Anybody drink milk or eat cheese, yogurt, or butter? Dairy cows are treated horribly IMO. :/

[Bird_Brain]

Hurricanejen- I find it kinda odd that you are criticizing people for using "poor" quality dog food to feed blue tongues, but in reality, your pelleted diet is much worse than the dog food! In all honesty, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth which IMO is hurting your credibility. Practice what you preach! If these meals are so bad, dont be recommending feeds that include them!

[Bird_Brain]

Hi Jen, how about the high end dog foods that actually state "human grade" on the labels, and the ingredients lists are simple foods?

The term "human grade" does not have a legal definition in the animal feed business.

[hurricanejen]

Okay, okay, okay, I throw in the towel!

[critterguy]

I wouldn't just "throw in the towel"-this discussion has been very interesting. I may even buy some bearded dragon food to see what my skinks think of it. The stuff doesn't really seem suitable for beardies themselves though.

Again, I'll restate my thoughts that monitors are more carnivorous than blueys therefore their dietary requirements are different. It explains why the SDzoo diet works so well for them.

[Bird_Brain]

No need to throw in thetowel. I am just really confused by your stance? Maybe i am missing something but why do you recommend the rep cal bearded dragon diet? I am in no way against pelleted diets as i feed mazuri insectivore pellets as well as the dog food. I am just really confused as to why you are so against ddog food, yet feed a diet just as "bad" if not worse than the dog food.

[Lea]

I haven't had much time to devote to posting lately, but find this conversation fascinating and interesting.

It's interesting to here all the different views, bit what fascinates me is this idea of convenience. Yes, if you have lots of skinks, such as our breeders, it's handy to have a "supply" of convenience foods to feed- but not as a staple. Our pets are not or should not be "inconvenient" to us and therefore the time should be spent to really think about what we are giving them..

Humans may eat fast food, on occasion! If it's done sensibly, there is no harm in giving ourselves the crappy stuff we do. But, eating it as a staple ...

I like to think of dog food as "fast food for skinks". Ok, it's no exactly the high cholesterol, heart-clogging quality of a big mac and extra cheese, but it's not a wholegrain, protein-balanced nutri-feast either.


We spend sooooooooooooo much time analysing the good or bad in the dog food. Some choosing between the fast food options of pellets and dog food- couldn't this time be spent preparing some fresh meats, looking for sources of suitable veg and fruits that we could collect, prepare and feed as a knowingly good creation for our pets??

Time? Really an issue? I don't think it should ever stand in the way of looking after a living creature.

Also, we may think it's "ok" because skinky ate every last piece and licked the plate, but experimenting on our animals is plain disgusting. The "I'll try it on him and see if he eats it" attitude, just plain appauls me! Pasta? I mean, seriously? ONE SMALL PIECE COULD EXPAND TO A POINT WHERE IT COULD KILL A ANIMAL THE SIZE OF A SKINK!

Reptileking, agreed. Let's not focus on comparing one "bad food" with another. We know a lot about what is good, so try to use the better alternative.

I am not against dog food, I use it on occasion, but would feel I am offering slow death on a plate to my skinks should I feed it all the time- same as if I were to eat chocolate for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Yup, I would like it- but I also know it could kill me.

[Scotts1au]

I mix up my blueys diet but dog food is definitely a substantial part of it. I actually believe that it is not "slow death" to incorporate it into the diet or even bad food in that context.

My father used to joke that our dog lived to 20 years old but it was the dog food that killed it.

I actually believe that most commercial DFs are not that bad at all as a match for blueys food requirements. Yes blueys are omnivores but lean more to the carnivore side in a similar way to dogs, who are true carnivores but incorporate plant material into their diets.

The proof should be how well the animals do on it not necessarily our anthropocentric views. My 2cents.

[xxmonitorlizardxx]

Lea and Scott what do you feed?
Does it mirror that of what you watch wild skinks eat.

[Scotts1au]

Both of us keep blueys outdoors and indoors, outdoors my blueys get DF, veges, cut up fruits, i.e apples, all my garden snails, kitchen scraps you name it. On top of that they also get anything that crawls, flies into the enclosure. I do see them eating woodlice (slaters) occassionally.

[Jeff]

Disclaimer: I love you Lea! I am the first one to admit that you are a much more intelligent person than me. This post/rant is definitely not directed at you in any way. This is just one of the very few topics we disagree on. Here is my view.

I agree with Scott 100% on this. I still keep hearing over and over that dog food is bad for skinks. Based on what evidence? I know it may be disgusting to look at or smell, and that it has things in it that I would never want to eat, but I am not a skink! I could not disagree more with comparing dog food in the diet of a BTS to fast food in the diet of a human. I agree that fast food has been proven to be unhealthy for humans if eaten in large quantities. I not only disagree that the same can be said for dog food and skinks, but the OPPOSITE has been PROVEN. The only argument I have ever heard to that statement is, "you can't tell if a skink is healthy by looking at it". My question to that is, how exactly CAN you tell that a skink is healthy if not by the fact that it looks and acts healthy, breeds well, and lives for 20+ years?! If that is not proof, then how do you determine that the BTS fed something other than dog food is healthy?

I spend hours feeding some of my animals every week. I also spend a fortune. I do NOT choose to feed my skinks dog food because it is cheap OR easy. I feed it because of the proven track record it has since at least the '70's. I don't believe it is just "good enough", or it is all I can "afford", I use it because I honestly think it is as healthy, if not healthier than anything else I can feed them.

The thing I like most about a dog food based diet is that it is the one that people are the least likely to screw up. Unfortunately I believe that most people who feed a complicated diet tend to get lazy, sloppy, or forgetful after awhile. It's just human nature. Items start getting left out, other less balanced things get substituted and eventually what started out as a well balanced diet ends up something that does not meet the animals needs. It is nearly impossible for that to happen when you feed a dog food based diet. Even dog food alone has probed to be "adequet" for most BTS. Over the years by trying different things, it has been learned that adding frozen vegetables and vitamin supplements results in even healthier skinks. Lots of other things were tried. Nothing has been found that results in healthier skinks. This is not a theory. This has been tested over time. The belief that dog food is not healthy for BTS however IS a theory. One that has been proven false. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but the only way it can be denied is to completely discount the people who have spent the last three decades proving it.

I freely admit that it is possible to meet all of a bts's dietary needs without using dog food. My question is "why?". Why go to all the trouble to prepare food that MAY meet your animals needs as well as dog food, IF you do it exactly right? We KNOW that we can give them the best diet by simply starting with a dog food base. It has just never made sense to me why people resist so hard what has been proven. I realize that for some people it just makes them feel better to spend more time and effort on their animals, but I also know that others truly believe there is something wrong with dog food. My point is, if you can't support that claim with some kind of evidence (like some unhealthy blueys that can not be explained by other factors), then I don't think the claim should be made.

There are many things in the world that are toxic/poisonous to some species, yet a normal part of the diet of others. Why is it so hard to believe that something like dog food, while not healthy for some animals, could be very nutritious to others?

[hurricanejen]

So my last bit - sure, dog food works. But I feel offering whole prey is likely to work better. 30 years ago, you fed monitors dog food, too. And tortoises. Pretty sure there was a time it was considered great to feed iguanas dog food, too. But in all of those other types of animals, other types of food and other diets have been proven as effective if not more so than feeding dog food.
Dog food is specially formulated for dogs. Sure, it also can work for skinks, but why not feed rodents? Those are as easy to get, possibly even cheaper than dog food, depending on size, and just as easy to feed.

You're right, I can't argue with 20 years of success. Why is why I stopped. Throwing in the towel, all that fun stuff.

Last but not least...
just because they'll eat it doesn't mean they should. Pasta included. It was an accident, I swear. I dropped some alfredo and tapped my foot for the dog to eat it, and the skink came up and ate it instead. He is just fine in the aftermath. He, more than any other animal I have ever owned, is pretty determined to eat everything.



How did the first person to feed dog food figure out that their skinks would eat dog food, if not by trying new foods with them? Just saying, what's intrinsically wrong with bringing home new reptile foods for my omnivorous reptile to try?

[Scotts1au]

Fair to say I wouldn't consider feeding monitors dog food because they are not omnivores - horses for courses of course. Apples and oranges and all that.

[Bird_Brain]

So my last bit - sure, dog food works. But I feel offering whole prey is likely to work better. 30 years ago, you fed monitors dog food, too. And tortoises. Pretty sure there was a time it was considered great to feed iguanas dog food, too. But in all of those other types of animals, other types of food and other diets have been proven as effective if not more so than feeding dog food.

You are absolutely correct! The only exception is blue tongue skinks that have been proven to THRIVE of a diet based on dog food! With time we had learned more about the dietary needs of those other species you mentioned and dog food was not a successful food item for them. So we altered their diet to fit their needs. This is not the case with BTS. Im not sure why this is is hard to understand?

[Bird_Brain]

I also want to point out that if I didnt feeding the dog food was the best diet available to feed BTS, why would I risk the health of my skink? I have a decent number of bts at nearly 20. I have invested close to $5000 on just the skinks alones. And I know there are several others on this forum who have much more invested who also feed a dog food based food. As a 24 year old male, I sure as heck dont have another $5000 to just go out and purchase more skinks if these ones die do to poor diets! I think it would be obvious that I would provide the best that I can for this investment. And from everything I have seen, heard, read, dog food is by far the best diet to make my skinks thrive.

[El Lobo]

An example of how the evolvement of diet keeps pets healthier and longer lived, drawn from over thirty years experience with one species of parrot.

Jen has stated that thirty years ago monitors were fed dogfood and failed to thrive on this diet. Around the same time captive Eclectus parrots were only living for about ten years. Carers, breeders and vets knew this should not be the case as they had similar physical attributes (e.g. low heart rate) of other medium to large parrots but were living much shorter lives than small parrots such as African Lovebirds. After considerable study and research it was found the seed-based diet they were being fed lacked inter alia, sufficient vitamins A and E and was not soft enough for their gut. Most of the parrot mixes sold in supermarkets and petshops were unsuitable, being based purely on seed. Today's diet for these parrots only contains a small amount of seed (the former staple) but more cooked foods such as rice, pulses and vegetables like butternut, carrot and sweet potato (yams) etc. This is topped with fresh fruits, preferable tropical but others can substitute. They are now living in excess of thirty years and I expect that if the new diet is widely adopted it wont be too long before their life expectancy is closer to fifty years.

The point here is that while this newer diet suits the Eclectus parrot it would most likely be unsuitable for most other species of parrots; likewise their seed-based diet does not suit the Eclectus. The same analogy could easily apply to species of reptiles given their evolutionary proximity to birds.

[Lea]

Jeff, I love you, too, lol! I actually don't disagree with most of the things you've said. I choose not to use dog food for the majority of the time (because I do feed it occasionally) because I am at the liberties of choice. I think my main gripe about it is the convenience idea and a lot of stress is put on that when choosing some foods over others. I consider the idea of rotting meat and decaying flesh on the floor of every slaughterhouse, a sweeping generalisation, sorry, Jen, but having actually visited our local abattoir on occasion to check on the health of cattle-lined-up-for-the-doom, mostly it has been pristine and the animals respected and taken care of. Well, up until the deed is done, then the cattle would probably be to differ.

I have choice and the good fortune of living in a country where I can learn from the wild, then aim to replicate to the best of my abilities. I forget that not everyone is that lucky and I think that's disrespect on my part. I have subconsciously assumed that we are kind of all at the same liberty of choice. I am sorry for that, thanks jeff for giving me a reminder!

Jen, phew on the pasta! And thanks to Scott for answering on my behalf there. I feed a wide range of goodies and have the pleasure of an enormous multicultural fruit and veg Market at a stones throw from my house each Sunday. I do t have much of a social life and my mother in the uk loathed the fact I probably have more skinks than i actually have friends, but that does influence the time I put into my animals- apologies again for kind of assuming the same socially inadequate behavoiur is in everyone, lol.

Anyway, I deviate! The diet- kangaroo rump (thanks to el lobo or I might never have considered it), some chicken or other lean cuts, occasional egg with/without the ground shells. Bok Choy, native herbs amd plants such as
wild basil/saltbush/nasturtium, fruits like mango,blueberries, strawberries etc, a little ripe banana if I have a sick and skinny one, bearing in the good and bad qualities. Hmm, then alfalfa, maybe broccoli, corn, squash,carrots .... It's a long list and I aim to mix it up as much as I can.


Most people will feed a mix up of things, I think overall we do it to the best of our knowledge and aim to do the best. I love that jeff, among others, have given the type of dog good he gives, a lot of thought and you can clearly see he hasn't taken an "it's just convenient" opinion.

Dog food does not have to be bad all the time, but it still could be if given one that contains additives or Lacks certain things. Some are higher in salt and purines, which needs to be noted.

Not all "people" food is good, and the same with dog food- choose carefully and your skink will do better for it.