BLOTCHED BRUMATION

[Ophidiophile]

The waking males early thing to me is waking them straight up into ideal conditions,which makes females ovulate sooner,smaller breeding windows and making timing a heck of a lot more important

Right. I think this is key Richard. That they are waking into ideal conditions and not continuing to fluctuate up and down as would happen outdoors where they naturally occur.

[kl]

I'm in complete agreement with that. Here, we warm up our animals to consistent daily temperatures and at night probably are still at normal room temperatures of 68 to 70 degrees. It would not surprise me if you guys told me that Australia still gets cooler nights into the 50's initially after Blotched start becoming active. Our animals don't get that large drop once they are warmed due to the fact most of us breed reptiles in our homes and we usually don't keep house temperatures much below 68. This probably quickens when they will mate and shortens the breeding window for both males and females.

KL

[El Lobo]

Mid summer here in the Blue Mountains overnight temperatures 50-60°F.

[Scotts1au]

True reflection of the edaphic environment of the microclimate of blueys is more likely to be a combination of night surface soil temperatures, heat retention within their hiding area etc. I doubt that this closely reflects air temperature at 1 metre above the surface which will be much more variable. In an indoor enclosure their temperatures are a function of what we provide for them.

I'd like someone to explain the logic of waking males up early. My females come out in about mid September without mating till November, so there is a good month or more between waking and first mating activity. In the wild they are exposed the same conditions - why wouldn't someone work with this system?

From whAt I observe, I would try waking them at he same time, increasing their temperatures over normal keeping conditions on the day that I'm attempting to introduce them ie bigger globe, or block vents to up the temp- watch what happens.

[kl]

Scott, I think the problem with trying to control the temperatures as you suggest is that it is difficult for most of us who breed indoors, especially those who live in warmer climates. I'm assuming your females go longer before mating is because of greater fluctuations of temps during the early part of the warm up period that also provides bigger night drops than we provide. Most of us are either breeding in basements or rooms in our living areas of the house. For people like me who also keep other species of lizards which require warmer night time temps, trying to keep Blotched on the cooler side (especially nights) during the initial warm up is difficult. If animals are in rooms in the primary living area of the house then it's even more difficult because most people keep room temps about 68 to 70 around the clock. I think it's a matter of us providing more consistently warmer temps (especially at night) after warm up that explains much of the differences we all observe. Believe me, the method I've been using does result in many more failures than successes. I'd love to be able to learn a better way to do it.

I do appreciate all the input as this thread has been very helpful and informative even when opinions sometimes differ. We work with very limited numbers of Blotched compared to the larger numbers you guys have so our knowledge and observations are based on a very small number of animals.

KL

[Scotts1au]

The question about pre warming males was really just trying to understand why someone would do it, and the underlying logic. If anything I think it is the females readiness that determines mating . My previous example was where I believe the male was past it, though the females were probably ready to go. I was also just suggesting that you could try upping the temps which I don't think is that hard ( personally) just a twist of a thermostat. In all my enclosures I use a globe for day/night and seperate low wattage Che on a therm so the sort of temp increase I'm talking about is very simple.

I don't use this setup for mating, but for keeping babies to reduce temperature fluctutations but could easily be used to create fluctuations that in referring to.

I don't really think there is s need to keep blotchies cooler than other reptiles once awake, they seem to crave heat (and food). I think that a lot their habitat choice in the wild has to do with their moisture management as much their temp tolerances/preferences. They seem to less efficient with moisture than Easterns for examples, the outcompete Easterns in cool wet areas due to their resistance to ailments.

[Richard.C]

Scott the waking of males early is because they are often being woken up to summer conditions day temp wise,and its to give them a chance to shed,so there ready when females are woken a week or 2 later,being woken into warm conditions makes there mating season come on really fast and if woken together to warm,females cycle before males often get a chance to shed

Thats the reasoning of waking males first,into a warm wake up,females typiclly have small windows,males can kerp going for a couple of months at least,if not warmed to much to early,to warm can shut both down faster than normal to,as its the weather that controls all this for both sexes

Variable temps seem to often prolong timing of mating after wake up,from keeping them indoors in big open top enclosure,even with hot basking spot and july wake ups,the background temps were still cool and mine indoors mated at around same time the outdoor ones do,with on average mid to late march baby season

[Richard.C]

Ive tried waking them into watm conditions last couple of seasons indoors,some males two weeks earlier,others at same time as females,last season saw nothing,this season saw quite a bit of chasing and biting holding,but no actual copulations,its pretty hard for me to wake them into summer type conditions though as a 7 foot long open top cage with a basking spot up one end leaves alot of cool zone still,but this season i covered a bit of the roof up and offered night warmth to

Next season if i have some indoors again,no effort will be made to warm them quickly,my conditions dont really suit that anyways plus i think it makes them trickier that way,i will still wake them early,but they will wait till the ambients rise well into spring to breed,eith a few hold back northerns this season i may not have the room to experiment with blotchies,lol

[Scotts1au]

I'm not saying I'm disagreeing but generally, here at least my females Also shed before mating but I think this is just because they react to the females being ready which take a while.

If I had the inclination I could try them indoors but the last couple if years my indoor enclosures have still been full of last years babies- I like to see how the turn out.

Personally I'd just focus on the females as priority, young males I've had indoors I've had have been shooting plugs from the moment the weather warms up with virtually no brumation prior to working out Che use properly which now have to a fine art. I don't think they need to shed first but this only from watching them indoors - not attempting to mate them. Could be that the young ones are trigger happy.

[Richard.C]

Youngens often are trigger happy,lol,but some get the job done still,scott im pretty sure ive had males mate in the past prior to shedding,but they may have shed just prior to going into brumation,which may come into play,if any indoor matings took this season ive also had males shed twice prior,in general though,it appears that they do in geberal have to have a pre mating slough as the majority of mine have followed that,i do botice most of the females shed to not long after the males but again ive seen girls covered before shedding only to shed after windows closed,but again,especially outdoors most of my females shed first like you see,often just after the males,but some at same time,but usually all males are done shedding before all the females,i get a bit more of a gap between first to last female sheedding than with the males

Indoors i get more of a mix,some go at similar times to outdoors,but others the males have shed twice or more before a females had her first shed,the western pair also do this,but still havnt gotten babies from her so might not be normal there

[kl]

I've never had a male mate before shedding. Since the males take about 3 to 3 1/2 weeks to shed and because I had females allow mating starting around the end of the 2 week period, that is why I've been warming males first.

In your opinions, what would you think is the biggest reason why a female that is bred 8 to 10 times does not become gravid? Amongst all the people I know breeding Blotched outside of Australia, this is the biggest complaint. Very few people in the states have had success though several have had pairs copulate. It's easy to say wrong timing but I always was under the assumption that if a female is willing to mate then she must be in that window when she can become inpregnated.

KL

[Scotts1au]

It may depend on the prowess of the male. Partially because the females are soo much larger, generally significantly smaller males, or those less than 3 year old will fail (with exceptions) but will need more goes at it. Generally if you have a small group together outdoors, most babies will be fathered by a single dominant, competent male, others fumble around. There may also be something to do with generally lower fecundity than Easterns (less babies) on top of a shorter window.

[Richard.C]

With mine kim,outdoors they only go for females that appear to be cycling,i dont remember to manu cases of a mated female not producing the goods

The prob though is i dont always get to see whom gets mated,some do get scuffed up but dont produce,but i get a prob of over excited young males going after anything that moves,often including sub dominate males,so even a few males get scuffed up shoulders

One prob to is unlike northerns,blotchies keep going and going,ive seen my dominate male cover a female 5 times in less than4 hours late one afternoon,propper copulations to,i dont often get the chance to spend all day watching there antics,might need to set up the go pro and see what they do when im not around,but i commonly do see multiple coverings per day,with northerns its a task getting them to go twice on same day,i think best ive managed is 2nd time 6 hours after the first time with them

Most seasons i see multiple males covering females at same time,i believe on my u tube page of blotchie copulations you will see multiple pursuits at same time,often i get two or 3 males chasing one female as well,i have an old pic of dominant male and one of his oldest sons both hanging off the big old girl ,one on each side,the dominant one is copulating her in pic,silly younger ones hanging on doing the odd vent kick trying to lift her already lifted tail

Oddly with my older lowlands group the best mating and dominant male is tiny,around 30 cm mark bit over now but tiny,hes getting on in age but still tiny,ever since he matured the big lowlands males have stopped all interest in wanting to mate,but that like the alpines seems to be an artifact of alot of sexually mature males ,especially compared to females,the last few seasons ive had to thin the male herds down

[Richard.C]

Scott the younger males thing ,with missing the mark so to speak could also be an artifact of them trying to early,i see that alot with mine,every season a few males go nuts,they go after anything that moves,except doninant males,which sit there then retaliate if need be,they show promise every season,but as soon as the dominant ones show interest in females,the younger ones generally stop there nuttiness and turn into runners

Happens a week or 2 before females appear to be ready,perhaps they are starting to give off phermones but not enough to get the dominant ones the right signals,at that same tine i do notice that dominant males do hang around females,often basking and resting with them and majority of the time when the dominant ones go,its those very same females they cover first

Its my belief because they have no competition from younger males,they just act dumb and not interested till the time is spot on

Ive had some very good uoung breeders,but also some that appear more interested in chasing and hanging on,i believe timings got alot to do with that as most earlu interest males are the ones that stop when the dominant ones start,often getting put in there place by older males and totallu losing there interest

[Richard.C]

In regards to spring temps outdoors here,our day time high average takes months to get near 70 f

Mine start coming out of brumation outdoors usually late august,but in saying that they just bask,and they show not much interest in food to on average oct,we do get the odd warm to hot day,but we get a lot of wintery weather still to,which is the important part of all this,average ambients reaching a certain level,its long before we get consistant heat,mine have no particular patterns they go off,eg a certain date each season to expect to see mating,they have gone from as early as early oct till as late as 2nd week of december,thats just the vic alpines,oddly they do seem to drop mostly in march though,rarelu the odd litter comes in feb,hot years and a darker female,and occaisionallu i get babies from the vic alpines early to most in april for the vic lowlands april,but in general its mid to late march for vic alpines,early march for bluemountains and very late march

I should look at average ambients here for last 5 or 6 years as ive documented when mating has started ect for these guys over that period

Be interesting to see if theres a pattern there,i think there likely would be

The qld cases of outdoor blotchies have got me thinking about this,making me wonder if perhaps its important for a slow warming and that perhaps just being under that certain ambient for a time is enough for them to get the job done

[Richard.C]

Indoors with how i cycle the northerns im getting no consistency in there breeding seasons either,every season i get a huge swing in what they do,all to do with ambient temps,ive had late matings,as late as august into september,earlu ones starting at begginning of june but most consistency around mid july

Unlike with the blotchies babies are being born all over the place,from as early as 5 october till as late as early feb,november into december the most though

Ive also seen huge breeding windows to tiny ones,one cold winter it prolonged there windows to over 6 weeks for the females,on average its been 7 to ten days

And ive had a male cover one female successfully at start of june,then again cover another female successfuly in late july intp august,males windows are open consistentlu for alot longer than females.but again if you warm them to full summer type temps early that probably isnt the case,my northerns breed when temps are at there coolest,june through to september,its still pretty darned cold either side of that to

[Scotts1au]

Geez Richard, I'm not sure that there is much more to do than to post pictures.

Note that these girls are all knocked up to the one male called George who I seperated out this year by himself with them to prevent my dominant male (his father) Norm getting the jump.

thegirls.jpg

This is George in the middle, finally come of age for breeding - obscene colours will be interesting to see how the babies turn out. As Richard pointed out, mating was a lazy affair because there were no other males in the enclosure with him - he was a bit like the old bull and probably started having a poke from about 10 Nov to early in Dec. Babies are due in first or second week of Feb from my guess. There is another girl who I don't think is gravid that I didn't include in the pictures - although things might just be late with her.

girls2.jpg

George

george.jpg

Just for a laugh I chucked in a photo of his father Norm (gnarly old bugger) who is missing the end of his tail and scuffed up from many battles over the years over chicks. :-) George would have got the hell beaten out of him if I left Norman in there.

Norman2.jpg

[mark_w]

Once again, what a brilliant thread.

Two ideas to throw in the mix. First, in some species, like the European lacertids (green lizards, eyed lizards and such), the males have to be kept sufficiently cold in winter to produce viable sperm. If not, they will still mate in the spring, but the females will not become gravid. Second, one major difference between Scott and Richards' outdoor set ups and usual indoor approach (keeping animals separately and only introducing them for mating) is the presence of multiple males and multiple females. I only managed to get my northerns to breed last year after putting two males together for a scrap. That really fired them up. Could some male to male interaction be important? Then again, maybe the presence of multiple females helps get them all cycling at the same time?

Mark.

[kl]

First, Scott that male is absolutely beautiful but even in your group of females there are deep orange colored animals. They must produce awesome babies.

Mark, you bring up a point I've heard a few times before. If males are not kept cold enough they may not be producing viable sperm. Has any scientific research involving skink biology ever been done on that to determine if it's true? I also assumed the same thing as well but I've never read any real research about it.

KL

[Scotts1au]

There are some university of Tasmania articles I believe some are posted on Andrew seike's site.