Wkat kind of BTS? And help sexing

[Richard.C]

So lets say I found a female grey and black Indonesian, I could breed her to this boy? Im NOT gonna do this of course right now. I don't have near enough experience to even think about breeding lol. Im just curious about the different colors and variants

Yes,pretty sure it says a GREY and BLACK INDONESIAN

Getting pretty old now so may have to get my eyes tested

[Katrina]

You would breed a Halmahera to a classic? Would you breed an IJ to a Merauke? A Lowland Blotched to a Highland? Why? Doesn't matter if you have the exact data, but if you breed with what looks a like you will find yourself breeding a Halmahera to a Halmahera as Halmaheras do not even the slightest bit look like classics.

And that is your opinion. This is mine. I think it is irresponsible, IMO.

Wow - umm, I think the point was that you have NO IDEA what the locales are. So you can't be sure that they are different locales. I've seen imported females give birth to babies that would be ID'd as classic Meruakes to 100% Indo to IJ in the same 8-10 babies - no, we can't be certain what the father looked like, but the mother was 'classic' Merauke, so we have NO CLUE as to the variability within areas of Indonesia. Maybe a mother can have yellow and gray Indo babies in the wild, maybe it isn't two different locales.

No one is arguing that you shouldn't try to breed similar animals and no one is saying to breed IJs to Meraukes. Richard was just pointing out that you really don't know what locales they are or if they are all that different. Maybe they are just commonly found together in the wild. Maybe our notion of Merauke, classic Merauke, IJ etc is completely flawed - WE DON'T KNOW, we don't have enough information.

Nice leap from assuming they are different locales to breeding them would be irresponsible. Just because someone mentioned that you don't have full information doesn't mean you can assume that they are all for breeding integrades or that your opinion is somehow superior. We don't have enough information to be certain of anything so there is no need for you to feel like a more responsible person just because you have made some assumptions that other don't take for granted.

[XDragonGrlX]

Oh I didn't know they where sub species lol.. I figured they where the same! So is mine a classic? Or a Halmahera?
And I didn't mean to post this to get people to argue.. It was an innocent question.. I am NOT breeding this guy as he will be my only bluey. As stated, I am new to blue tongue skinks and just trying to figure out the difference between them!

And IF I ever where to even attempt to breed, id get a pair from a reputable person who knows exactly what they have and some sort of genetics behind them as well

[Katrina]

Oh I didn't know they where sub species lol.. I figured they where the same! So is mine a classic? Or a Halmahera?
And I didn't mean to post this to get people to argue.. It was an innocent question.. I am NOT breeding this guy as he will be my only bluey. As stated, I am new to blue tongue skinks and just trying to figure out the difference between them!

And IF I ever where to even attempt to breed, id get a pair from a reputable person who knows exactly what they have and some sort of genetics behind them as well

It's ok, yours is a nice, normal Indo. Dakota was overcomplicating the matter, but you have an Indo and you didn't cause any arguing! The point we are trying to explain to Dakota is that we don't know if different looking Indos are necessarily different locales. He was making some questionable assupmtions by giving you unwanted breeding advice. Sorry for the off topic discussions, it wasn't your question that caused any arguments.

[Dakota]

Okay, this topic of Indonesians is one thing, but someone is ACCUSING me of crossbreeding???? That is probably the biggest insult anyone has ever gave me.

Where is you think I tried to pair my IJ to a Merauke, Richard? The only time I put them together was to get an idea of sex. It is pretty easy to separate them if it got serious.

[Richard.C]

Sorry dragongrl,

Scientificly,they arent different subspecies,there all indos,tiliqua gigas gigas

I butted in because i didnt want you to be mislead by silly comments

A yellow indo and a black and grey indo are just 2 of many color forms of the same species,gigas gigas

There colors are highly variable even from the one locality,some people incorrectly assume the color forms are restricted to certain locales for some wacky reason,even with proof in front of them showing thats not the case

With all indo species,its pretty much impossable to know where they have originally come from,alot of people claim there locale animals,but infact they arent as no collection data comes with them

Breeding a yellow indo to a black and grey indo is breeding indos,just of different color traits,its not breeding subspecies at all

[donkeybuff]

I don't think that breeding a yellow to a black and white would be irresponsible in any way. If anything, it would help us understand the genetics behind the black and white color form.

[Dakota]

I don't think that breeding a yellow to a black and white would be irresponsible in any way. If anything, t would help us understand the genetics behind the black and white color form.

Is finding out genes really important enough to breed classics to Halmaheras? If there was an Albino Merauke, would you breed it to an IJ? Technically they are the same subspecies, too.

[donkeybuff]

I don't think that breeding a yellow to a black and white would be irresponsible in any way. If anything, t would help us understand the genetics behind the black and white color form.

Is finding out genes really important enough to breed classics to Halmaheras? If there was an Albino Merauke, would you breed it to an IJ? Technically they are the same subspecies, too.

IJs are undescribed, not evanescens. I don't think all black and whites have the halmahera look either; there are even black and white meraukes. Pretty sure there are black and white "classics". I'll try finding pics.

[donkeybuff]

http://bluetongueskinks.net/bindo031.jpg

Pretty sure that would be called a classic yellow if it had color. I would breed that to the skink pictured in this thread.

[Dakota]

NO. Irian Jaya's are considered Tiliqua gigas evanescens, taxonomically speaking.

[Dakota]

People THINK they are not, and it was established by the community it was Tiliqua sp., in which is no different than people think Halmaheras are not gigas gigas, regardless of reasons. Halmaheras are gigas gigas, and Irian Jaya's are gigas evanescens.

[Richard.C]

Main reason i butted in was dakota misled op that breeding one color to another was cross breeding subspecies

How breeding a yellow indo to a black and grey indo is crossing subspecies i do not know,how he brought halmaheras into it i also do not know

Also what are halmaheras? There not a subspecies,but in fact a gigas gigas,which last time i looked are gigas gigas,aka indos anyways

In nature halmahera trait ones breed to classics as they are found together on halmahera,as well as off halmahera,which is why halmaheras arent a true locale just off looks

I dont want to niggle about things,but it annoys me when theres miss information being passed off as facts and newer members take it in as fact

For the benefit of the forum over all and the info it contains,some claims need to be challenged

Sorry it happened in your thread dragongrl,but hopefully it shows to take some peoples comments with a grain of salt

Ij have been lumped closest to meraukes,in other words shoved in the to hard basket for now

[Dakota]

Okay, but that means they are evanescens.

And how is it being passed off as fact, when in fact I said "I believe they are a different subspecies". Doesn't look like "They are a different subspecies".

It makes me cringe when I mention my opinion of Halmaheras being a different subspecies, when you believe IJ's are undescribed. That is an oxymoron.

[Scincoides]

Ij's have been lumped into TGE, UNTIL further research can be done. Im looking at the bluey bible right now and thats what it says. Its not a permqnent classification, Simply a temporary categorization so that the animals arent considered unclassified

[Dakota]

But nevertheless, still gigas evanescens, until further notice.

[Jeff]

If you feel so strongly about that Dakota, then why do you seem to have such a hard time accepting that Halamaheras are Tiliqua gigas gigas presently?

[Scincoides]

There's a difference between "we recognise that they are different but are categorizing as tge until studies can be done" and "from now.on its tge"

[Dakota]

If you feel so strongly about that Dakota, then why do you seem to have such a hard time accepting that Halamaheras are Tiliqua gigas gigas presently?

No, I believe that IJ's are not TGE. But technically they are.. I also believe Halmaheras are not TGG, but they technically are.

Just one is accepted by the community, the other isn't. I agree that in the end, IJ's are not TGE, I was using that as an example.

[Katrina]

This is really, really sad - a new member posted a picture asking what kind of BTS she has and maybe help sexing. Most of the thread is arguing semantics and making wild assumptions on locale, classification of subspecies and what she should or shouldn't do to ethically breed. This argument is occurring so some people can feel smart and be 'technically' right.

Probably not a good welcome for a new member, hey? Probably not going to encourage her to keep posting and asking questions, when this turns into a huge, off topic pi**ing contest so that some people can be 'right'. She already posted, apologizing for asking the question as she didn't intend to breed and was just curious on species - which is really, really sad. This forum is a resource for new BTS keepers. We should be encouraging and helping them, not giving unwanted advice on possible locale / breeding / ethics. Let's think before we post - do we need to comment just to defend ourselves so that we are 'right'? Or are we adding value to the thread and maybe encouraging a new members to participate, ask questions and join the community? And think - if you were brand new with your first bluey, would you care about the classification of T.G.E. or halmaheras? Would you care about what locales can or can't breed (and what we can prove are locales)?