do blue tongue skinks need uvb light? and outside question

[hurricanejen]

You're still ignoring the rest of what we have asked you. As a student, you especially should be aware of the need to back up claims with references, regardless of how commonsense you think they are.

At this point in time, you just look like a troll with nothing better to do.

[El Lobo]

Sorry for the slight delay in getting back, I was preparing a meal for our Eclectus parrot and adding the supplements she requires.

I did say " It would also be helpful if you would outline your background in keeping reptiles with particular emphasis on your experience with BTS." That requires no reference yet still no response.

I have been around this forum for a few years and have witnessed many other examples of where we are all wrong and the latest messiah is the only one with the true message. The one thing they all have had in common is failure to be able to support their claims.

[Scotts1au]

Just about everything involved in keeping blue tongues in captivity is bypassing natural processes. Uv lighting is a poor substitute for natural sunlight, declines over time etc. There are plenty of cases reported on this site over the years of people who believed they were doing the right thing by their blueys, only to still end up with mbd.

while I sympathise with your comments you will also know that P content in many foods is high and variable and despite a well considered opinion about what you giving a bluey, you never really know the P:Ca ratios unless you analyse them.

I not aware of any diagnosed cases of hypercalcaemia, having been reported over the years on this site, but definitely plenty of mbd. I agree that the actual needs of adult animals for supplementation should be minimal, when kept indoors. I would dispute that moderate use of vitD3 supplementation in commercial formulations is a hi risk activity. Thisisnt a discussion on other forms of vitamin supplementation.

[Richard.C]

1,being that most species are believed to eat predominantly vegetation in nature,if we do natural thing and feed predominantly vegetation in captivity how do they get D3

2,as a keeper of monitors,i havnt noticed females as den dwellers,mine are out and about as much as the males,often with the males except the short periods that egglaying is on the cards

3,uvb lights are no substitute for dietry intake of calcium/d3,as a provision for supplying cal/d3 alone they are very poor,thats fact,only worsened by not supplementing at all with or with out uv lighting

4,what natural foods are good for supplying cal/d3 ,i can only think of unatural foids that are actually supplemented with cal/d3 already,things like dogfood,reptile pellet based diets ect ect

I dont overly supplement the diet with dogfood eaters for that very reason,but its already supplemented and after years of feeding predominantly just dogfood,havnt seen any probs

5,monitors are fed generally on whole vertebrete food,rodents for the larger types so they get calcium/d3 from that,supplementation isnt as needed,but smaller insect eaters really need it,even more so egg laying females


If its commonly known fact some examples should be easily given,facts

A reptile in a 4 foot enclosure is as far from natural as you can get,and in captivity,natural is as far from actually good for them as being in captivity is natural for them

In nature they eat what ever to survive,they dont say eww thats not healthy,might make my butt big,they eat to survive,nature is harsh to alot of them,alot are forced to eat vegetation or they perish,captivity on the other hand provides consistent temps,food,ect ect,we supply them with what they need,they dont have to search for food or mates,dont have to eat like buggery in good times to make up for harsh times,captivity and nature is like chalk and cheese,alot different


If they eat predominantly vegetation,alot are said to eat 90 percent vegetation in nature,how does mimicking nature,feeding 90 percent vegetation offer them D3?

You said u use other natural ways,canu give us examples of these other natural options for giving them D3?

[Richard.C]

Welcome to the forum by the way

Its good to see a different angle on these familiar topics,i think i may agree on certain aspects of your thinking,but cant until i know for sure where you are coming from

More so with un natural diets though for me re already supplemented wet dog food

[Rbizzle]

Thank you for the welcoming. What specifically would you like me to show you sources about? The dietary facts? Or? I will post all I can as soon as I go eat, and respond to question/statements .

Please tell me which of the statements you need backing up too. Most are common sense if you read them carefully and don't get defensive because it's not the way you do it.

Does god sprinkle calcium and d3 on BTS food naturally?
Does D3 not process through kidney's and instead get's pulled into fat reserves?
Do fat reserves get used when an animal gets sick or does not eat?
Are D2 and D3 two different things?
If new to BTS and not to sure on a proper diet should you use UVB and supplements?
Is a good reason not to use UVB bulbs because they need to be replaced?
Does the word supplement mean to rely completely on that that one thing or that it is an all around good source?
Do you know for a fact the amount of D3 you should be supplementing your BTS with?

These are the common sense statements I made, if you are still confused and need more backing up on such simple statement please do let me know.

I've also said both ways are fine to do, but also said I prefer to go as natural as I can. This means other supplements(THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT HAS TO BE MAN MADE POWDERED D3/Calcium). So I don't really know what you people think I"m arguing about, unless you do not like new opinions or people speaking about what they believe in. What is the point of posting and telling people to read a care sheet if you are just going to contradict it.

[Rbizzle]

1,being that most species are believed to eat predominantly vegetation in nature,if we do natural thing and feed predominantly vegetation in captivity how do they get D3

2,as a keeper of monitors,i havnt noticed females as den dwellers,mine are out and about as much as the males,often with the males except the short periods that egglaying is on the cards

3,uvb lights are no substitute for dietry intake of calcium/d3,as a provision for supplying cal/d3 alone they are very poor,thats fact,only worsened by not supplementing at all with or with out uv lighting

4,what natural foods are good for supplying cal/d3 ,i can only think of unatural foids that are actually supplemented with cal/d3 already,things like dogfood,reptile pellet based diets ect ect

I dont overly supplement the diet with dogfood eaters for that very reason,but its already supplemented and after years of feeding predominantly just dogfood,havnt seen any probs

5,monitors are fed generally on whole vertebrete food,rodents for the larger types so they get calcium/d3 from that,supplementation isnt as needed,but smaller insect eaters really need it,even more so egg laying females


If its commonly known fact some examples should be easily given,facts

A reptile in a 4 foot enclosure is as far from natural as you can get,and in captivity,natural is as far from actually good for them as being in captivity is natural for them

In nature they eat what ever to survive,they dont say eww thats not healthy,might make my butt big,they eat to survive,nature is harsh to alot of them,alot are forced to eat vegetation or they perish,captivity on the other hand provides consistent temps,food,ect ect,we supply them with what they need,they dont have to search for food or mates,dont have to eat like buggery in good times to make up for harsh times,captivity and nature is like chalk and cheese,alot different


If they eat predominantly vegetation,alot are said to eat 90 percent vegetation in nature,how does mimicking nature,feeding 90 percent vegetation offer them D3?

You said u use other natural ways,canu give us examples of these other natural options for giving them D3?

1. As I said before you can supplement it with plenty of things that are not man made powders that you have no idea on how to dose.

2. This most likely means your monitors are stressed, improper set up or looking for a mate. In the wild female savannah monitors spend most of their time in dens and don't go very far from it when they do. It's the males that have miles of territories. What size enclosures do you keep your monitors in?

3. UVB does not provide any calcium at all.... not to sure how else you want me to answer that, as we've gone over how UVB alone is not enough not to sure how many times so far. Also never said it was a substitute, but did say with a proper diet it will do.

4. I think you have relied on calcium and d3 powder to much, you keep speaking about it like they should always be together, which in fact is they usually arent. This again is why I say it's best to seperate everything, just because it comes mixed together and is the easiest choice does not make it the best. Calcium is extremely easy to get from a diet of veggie, D3 is a bit harder but very do able ((Like I said will ost more on way to get natural d3 later)


My main argument is anything you can do with a man made powder, you can do more naturally with a little research and effort.

[Richard.C]

Ok,heres some questions

What foods do u feed that negate the need to supplement with d3 and are the natural foods

2,does god sprinkle his almighty powers at them to restrict them to the beef jerky cabinets we call there enclosures?

3,we dont know how much d3 we are giving them ,but do know we are supplying it,the backflip to that is do u know how much D3 they are getting with your method of supplying it? Also have u done this with animals over many years?im talking like 20 years on numerous animals that show no ill affects?

Know one knows how much they need,how much they are using ect ect,you use a little often to avoid over supplementing,like people have done for decades

With what u see alot of keepers feeding there animals,yes u do reccomend supplementing there diets,even changing diets,eg deli meat and lettuce type diets are often mentioned,alot of folk also believe uV lighting is a miracle light that will keep there lizards free from issues,so continue feeding a poxy diet and end up with mbd issues,no uv light comes close to what mother nature offers,they can offer other benefits but using them for the intake of calcium/d3 is laighable,common sense and the millions that get mbd show that it doesnt prevent issues,just like it shows ,good diet and supplementation has no issues for them
Actual longterm results speak louder then common hear say

[Rbizzle]

Sorry for the slight delay in getting back, I was preparing a meal for our Eclectus parrot and adding the supplements she requires.

I did say " It would also be helpful if you would outline your background in keeping reptiles with particular emphasis on your experience with BTS." That requires no reference yet still no response.

I have been around this forum for a few years and have witnessed many other examples of where we are all wrong and the latest messiah is the only one with the true message. The one thing they all have had in common is failure to be able to support their claims.

You have not asked me to support any claims specifically. Which claims do you need supported? How D3 get's reserved in fat and cannot pass through kidneys? How you don't know the dose of d3 your BTS needs? Like come on if you can not answer these with a simple yes or no, you are either a god(As you know the exact intake your specific BTS needs of D3) or you really shouldn't be keeping reptiles as you've clearly done zero research.

[Dakota]

I am not the one arguing in this thread, yes!

Maybe Jeff will state sooner or later where he got his information.

[El Lobo]

[quote="Rbizzle"
or you really shouldn't be keeping reptiles as you've clearly done zero research.[/quote]

Keep the personal insults out of it. You know nothing about me, my experience with different animals, or the level of research I have done.

Do you have a BTS, or have you had a BTS in the past? Simple question you keep avoiding. So before you start handing out the insults can we establish if you have direct knowledge of the subject or are you just quoting from something you found online.

[Rbizzle]

That was a general statement, if you took it personally maybe there is some truth to it. Not sure how to comment on that otherwise.. Yes I've keet BTS in the past (Most of 18 years on the east coast.) And since moving have wanted to get back into them but have found the reptile hobby very lacking in BC. The laws out here and the people are not helping.

My background,

Nutritionist for the past 8 years.
Have been keeping and around herps my entire life(Father was a breeder, mother was studying anthropology where her studies brought her to the Toronto Zoo everyday for almost 6 years. And not being able to afford daycare I went with her. So grew up at the zoo basically, working with all the keepers and eventually becoming a volunteer after mother stopped going. The orangutang exhibit that she was studying was located by the Reptile center and the water monitors. So that is where I spent my time and the keepers I got to know.
Ran a reptile/small animal rescue for 5 years and even got non profit status(Which takes a while up here) have seen many blue tongue skinks come in and to be honest MBD is the most common thing. But then again most those cases the diet was so off it was sad.(Dog/cat food, canned tuna other bad things)
I've bred quite a few types myself, mostly more common things like geckos as I hate how flooded the markets are these days.
Currently I am in school at University of BC taking zoology, where most the species kept and studied are reptiles and and fish(Easiest to keep and the least amount of space needed)
Will be going to guelph as they have a much better program, but plan on looking into Primatology more.
Lived in Indonesia with all these critters for a bit longer then a year, spending some of that time at a rehabilitation/conservation project for orangutans.

Oops forgot to mention. I currently also run a small business that rents out aquariums to business's and we also build custom acrylic tanks/enclosures. With this business we also end up setting up a lot of enclosures for reptiles, but most of our work is with fish.(As fish actually make money ).

[El Lobo]

That was a general statement, if you took it personally maybe there is some truth to it. Not sure how to comment on that otherwise.. Yes I've keet BTS in the past (Most of 18 years on the east coast.) And since moving have wanted to get back into them but have found the reptile hobby very lacking in BC. The laws out here and the people are not helping.

It seems as though you just have to be rude.

Take this as a warning. If you continue to be rude or offensive I will suspend your account for 24 hours to give you time to cool off.

[Richard.C]

20121216_172817.jpg

20121216_173943.jpg

Cage size is 12 X10 foot with 2 foot of soil to burrow into,the males have been in captivity over ten years now,origionally wild caught adults,the young females tiny in comparison to the 2 males,only been in there 12 months as i needed her to get some size on

In first pic is smaller adult male with female behind,second pic is the female prepparing to lay second clutch,she unearthed first clutch in the process,egg was dried out

I wouldnt say they are stressed at all,the female often hangs around one of the larger males,and is often out cruising about more than the males

How do females eat if they stay in a den,monitors eat like theres no tommorrow,highest preffered body temps of all reptiles along with fastest metabolism,and one of the biggest active foragers

[Rbizzle]

Sorry Richard, I meant to specify Savannah monitors. My bad!! Most other monitors are not like that, that is very true. By the way those guys are very beautiful, good size enclosure you have them in as well. When it comes to feeding that's why choice of den is so important. Sure you will get the odd female that will forage and basically be a nomad, but most are den dwellers with seasonal mass eating periods.

[Richard.C]

De dwelling could be them preparing for rest period and the time either side of that,or just a home base sort of thing,they can also thermoregulate staying under ground to,but there will always be a need for them to leave burrow for food ect,even savannah monitors


Enough about monitors

What foods do u reccomend for the intake of D3

And how do you know how much they need,get ect ect,d3 dosage wise from natural foods

[Rbizzle]

De dwelling could be them preparing for rest period and the time either side of that,or just a home base sort of thing,they can also thermoregulate staying under ground to,but there will always be a need for them to leave burrow for food ect,even savannah monitors


Enough about monitors

What foods do u reccomend for the intake of D3

And how do you know how much they need,get ect ect,d3 dosage wise from natural foods

Honestly, most the foods that do contain high amounts of it should only be used as a snack. But that being said, these snack foods would be included in a proper well rounded diet. So noone should be feeding thier BTs the same food everyday/week Less some days if any, and more on others. Then with a weekly dose of D3/calcium powder you stay on top of things. I mainly hate how they combine the d3 and calcium. Calcium is so much easier to obtain from food then D3, making it easy to over dose the calcium intake. This is what I meant it's the easy way, and how it's best to always separate supplements and other things. Just like humans, if you want proper vitamin intake you don't take multivitamins, you eat properly then take the specific vits you need. All you need is a well rounded diet and in captivity it does not have to be 90% fruit and veggies thus allowing for those extra snacks.

And that is a problem we all have Richard, no one know's how much they need to be getting. And overdosing will cause MBD just as much as under dosing. So to be honest I like to play it safe with the most rounded diet I can come up with.

By the way Richard I'm a nutritionist by trade, so if you want a list or diet plan that will cost ya :p. And I charge er hour

[Lea]

Honestly, most the foods that do contain high amounts of it should only be used as a snack. But that being said, these snack foods would be included in a proper well rounded diet. So noone should be feeding thier BTs the same food everyday/week Less some days if any, and more on others. Then with a weekly dose of D3/calcium powder you stay on top of things. I mainly hate how they combine the d3 and calcium. Calcium is so much easier to obtain from food then D3, making it easy to over dose the calcium intake. This is what I meant it's the easy way, and how it's best to always separate supplements and other things. Just like humans, if you want proper vitamin intake you don't take multivitamins, you eat properly then take the specific vits you need. All you need is a well rounded diet and in captivity it does not have to be 90% fruit and veggies thus allowing for those extra snacks.

And that is a problem we all have Richard, no one know's how much they need to be getting. And overdosing will cause MBD just as much as under dosing. So to be honest I like to play it safe with the most rounded diet I can come up with.

By the way Richard I'm a nutritionist by trade, so if you want a list or diet plan that will cost ya :p. And I charge er hour

Rbizzle, your last statement was just plain rude! You have spent most of this thread asking people to provide, support and verify facts and information, which they are very kindly, not to mention, patiently, trying to do. Whether you are serious or joking, to say it will "cost" for you to provide facts in return, is just hypocritical!

Pull your head in. We will respect your years of research and bountiful knowledge, once you respect ours. It takes a good man to admit he's not the most brainy in the world. Sometimes it pays to be a little humble in the presence of others and listen to what they have to say. You might just learn something.

[Lea]

hi i was wondering do bts need uvb light cuz i talked to some people and they said no some other people said yes so i wanna make sure also if i take my bts outside how many degrees does it has to be and how long can they stay out there?

With careful supplementation, that has been prior tested for appropriate dosage (note to Rbizzle) it had been shown that we can adequately provide enough vitamin d3 (active vit D) to allow calcium to be utilised. Because, naturally, the active form of vit d relies of UV light, it therefore makes sense to provide our animals with UVB light rays. Unfortunately, the amount of UVB supplied in a light globe falls so far short of that which the sun would give, it is therefore not proven to provide enough UVB for adequate vit D conversion to the active form and hence, UVB light alone may not provide enough means for our animals to "naturally" synthesise their own active vit D.

There are many stages in the process of both vit D production, its conversion to an active form and the following calcium uptake and utilisation from the bowel. It's not a simple process, therefore can not be explained in one simple answer.

I can explain a lot more about the production of vit d in the skin, it's conversion through a series of chemical reaction in the liver and kidneys to the product, 1, 25-dihydroxycholecalciferol, the active form of vit D, it's storage in the liver and the involvement of the parathyroid glands, but I feel it will be inconsequential to most. There is a wealth of knowledge, based mainly of facts with a little evidence based speculation at times, all of which help us form an opinion and make informed choices about whether we want to use supplementation or UV lights, or both. But the most important thing, since there is no definitive answer, is that we listen to all the information and look for the best choice for our animals.

[Scotts1au]

I think that if storage based toxicity were a significant issue there would be documented cases. It would be interesting to know whether cases of hypercalcaemia/toxicity are derived from iguanas. Blueys are well known to be able to break down substances, including flouroacetate that are toxic to other animals, having massive livers. The fate of excess d3 is a combination of storage, breakdown and conversion and excretion in bile.