Ben Seigel Albino Update

[Richard.C]

thats why hes not saying there easterns scott

theres enough proof that theres trade between aussie breeders and overseas,look how developed the jag carpet lines have become in a very short time,something thats taken years over seas,also zebra jungles and granite morphs were never here,now amazingly they are popping up here,at same time albino easterns ect pop up over there

pretty co incedental

alot of the big dealers in the states have been caught doing it,they get a slap on the wrist,maybe a 10,000 dollar fine but they earn more selling the stuff so risk it again

[Jeff]

There are plenty albinos, and hyper melanistic easterns here already Scott. I have no inside information on the specifics, but from what I can tell, they came to the U.S. through Europe. As ridiculous as it is, the people who illegally took these animals out of Australia will probably never be caught at this point. The animals almost certainly went through Asia before they found their way to Europe.

I hate the idea of animals being taken from the wild in order to be sold over seas, and I know the people responsible for getting these animals out of OZ are scum, but at least these are the result of captive breeding. The albinos weren't collected from the wild. They were produced in captivity and then sold for profit. It still sucks, but at least it isn't harming the wild populations.

[Scincoides]

Well I'm not buying from Ben seigel again. With any luck, since he's not a breeder, he won't have any luck hybridizing them. Probably get frustrated in a year or two and sell them off to make his money back. Then with any luck someone responsible with some experience will pick them up and use them accordingly. While I wholeheartedly agree that its disgusting that these animals were smuggled over here so that some ass can make a quick buck, let's not forget though, that this animal( is it just one?) Is an Eastern blue tongue skink in the U.S. Probably unrelated to what we already have here. There's an upside to everything, no matter how small. This is an animal that in the right hands could help diversify our bloodlines over here and help ensure that our grandchildren and their children will be able to see these wonderful animals outside of a zoo. The irresponsibility of such a highly regarded man in the industry bothers me immensely. The fact that the animal was illegally snatched from OZ and brought here aside, he should realize the importance of keeping the species pure and untainted. Some IJ's and easterns aren't particularly easy to distinguish for some already, this is going to make it a hundred times worse.

Ok.. Rant over.

[jasjmm27]

Glad others had to say exactly what I felt like without having to say it myself...

[Linnea]

Im starting to feel a little confused here.

why export animals to europe and then to usa?
where is the connection between asian and european reptile exporters?
why are there albinos in europe, from hamm, where do they come from?
who is it that keeps producing odd morph bts for the american and european market, and by doing so making them accessible for people like this?

where are the private collectors selling and buying these animals? are they just not the type to hang around the net discussing their super expensive animals?

why in the world should bts be mixed like this, there is so little profit money in them in comparison to other reptiles.
keeping exotic animals is a good thing, and i want it to stay that way.

are we talking eastern mixed with IJ and northern? or eastern mixed with anything possible?

if the breeder is as serious as it sounds, there should be a breeding process writte down on genetics at the very least. sounds weird if there isnt, its like making a living off bp's without knowing what morph you wish to sell ibn the first place. there must be a plan and a goal, or its just a random waste of money, including an incredibly sad animal story.

[Jeff]

The reptile (all animals actually) black market is HUGE in Asia. It is my impression that it is MUCH bigger there than it is in the U.S. or Europe. Without having any statistics to support it, I believe that the vast majority of animals smuggled out of Australia go directly to Asia. From there they get distributed throughout the world.

It is extremely difficult to legally bring animals into the U.S. directly from Asia. The rules and regulations seem to continually change, and at times it simply is not possible at all. Because of this, most of the animals that leave Asia go to Europe. The European import laws are much less strict than they are in the U.S. I have personally had 2 separate instances when I was unable to import animals from Asia, but they were easily sent to Europe.

I would assume that a high profile person like BS would have his paperwork in order on these skinks, and the most likely way for that to happen would be if they came from Europe.

When it comes to rare morphs, there is every bit as much money in BTS as other animals. At this point, I would expect an albino or hypermelanistic eastern to bring $5-$10,000 USD. As far as I know, none have been offered for sale publicly yet in the U.S. So far all of the BTS morphs in the U.S. are in the hands of high-end "snake" breeders. This is the first time I have heard anyone openly admit that they are going to breed them with anything they can. If doing this would increase the profit, I could at least understand that motivation. Crossing them won't do that though! You will make just as much selling 10 albino easterns as you will selling 5 easterns and 5 IJ's. The long-term affect is that we won't have pure albinos of ANY type.

[Lea]

Sounds ludacris and a little shady. I'm just going to repeat everything that's been said, so I'll just keep it to a single raging spit. How on earth, if you have any clue about blue tongues, would you lose track of the ancestory in an albino? It just screams nonchalance and a complete disregard for not only that animal, but for the protection of the species as a whole.

If you don't know whether it's from one species or another and you want to breed, well, just don't. There seems to be no care involved to see that the animal would even fall into the right hands in the future, either.

I don't know the "breeder" and have nothing to show for his history in preservation of a species, but this speaks volumes to me ... ugghhh.

[kl]

I have nothing against those that are trying to breed them but I don't understand the fascination with these "designer" skinks. This is not to say I don't admire how cool they look and the black ones do remind me of my favorite skink species, Land Mullets. I just got an email from a guy in Europe selling the black blue tongues and he wants 5000 euro each. Sure, no problem! I'm probably in the minority but I'll gladly take a well colored, pure bloodline Blotched, Centrilian, Shingleback, or Western any day of the week and pay more for them than I would with these designer skinks. Let the snake breeders work with them.


KL

[Richard.C]

at least if doing such things they could be more honest about things,eg they know full well what they are and leaving it to customers to decide what they are is very lame at best,alot dont even know what normal colored ones are

they could at least be honest about it as not knowing what they are is a pretty big porky to begin with

i dont get how folk go gah gah over them,alot of albinos look funky,plus isnt breeding a trait into them that makes sunlight hurt there eyes a cruel thing

imagine some of the normals you could get with what one of these albinos go for,and they honestly look 100 times better,chuck an alpine blotch or goldfields stumpy next to an albino and tell me its not better looking,prettier,chuck it in sunlight to get a pic and they can even keep there eyes open

there a money thing,an esteem thing,not a thing of beauty

[Scincoides]

Richard, sadly that's something that's becoming more and more common in the reptile trade, especially in the states. Good examples are the spider ball python and the enigma leopard gecko. Both animals are born with neurological issues to a certain degree, issues which become worse if from spider x spider breedings and enigma x enigma breedings. Allot of irresponsible breeders knowingly cross these animals back and forth creating offspring with terrible issues that affect their quality of life. The same can be said about Sunkist corn snakes and smoothie bearded dragons (silk backs). The bearded dragons bother me the most out of all the odd mutations popping up right now. A heleothermic animal that can get a sunburn is something that absolutely makes me sick.

[Richard.C]

happening here to,jag carpets come to mind,funnily they popped up when the market for albino darwin carpets died in the butt,so the next big thing is looked for

some do look very nice,but for all the neuro issues and the fugly siblings from each litter being destroyed where does the ethics go

[Ophidiophile]

Ben just put this photo up tonight.

[xxmonitorlizardxx]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

[chelsea716]

I would like to point out, that ball python morphs do not harm the snakes, while cross species blue tongue skinks may harm all animals in the breeding process.

EDIT: It depends on the TYPE of morph for ball pythons however. Spiders should be morphed or bred at all IMO

[Dakota]

I would like to point out, that ball python morphs do not harm the snakes, while cross species blue tongue skinks may harm all animals in the breeding process.

I can cause some neurological problems from snake to snake.. depending on how bad they are inbred.
I believe that is what I heard on SnakeBytesTV, ha.

[chelsea716]

The guys over at snakebytes have some BAD care and lots of good care.... I edited my statement though. Good breeders try to not inbreed at ALL

[Fatal_S]

I would like to point out, that ball python morphs do not harm the snakes, while cross species blue tongue skinks may harm all animals in the breeding process.

Quite the opposite actually. Several ball python morphs have disorders that can be really terrible and are passed on with the morph. It's not just inbreeding - some morphs just come with a nasty trait included. On the other hand cross breeding blue tongues, especially species that are typically inbred (Easterns in the US for example) would likely produce strong, healthy animals. The damage comes to the bloodlines. There are a very limited number of "pure" bloodine easterns available in North America, so every individual messed with is a blow to the whole captive species.

Just remember, when we ruin the bloodlines we have, we don't get another shot at it. At least not unless we dip into the illegal market.

[Dakota]

Good breeders try to not inbreed at ALL

Isn't that how the whole designer-craze started? By super in-breeding? I'm not a morph person, so I don't know much.. just going by what my father has told me in the past.

This is getting OT, so I'm done with the conversation.

[chelsea716]

Good breeders try to not inbreed at ALL

Isn't that how the whole designer-craze started? By super in-breeding? I'm not a morph person, so I don't know much.. just going by what my father has told me in the past.

This is getting OT, so I'm done with the conversation.

Well, good breeders try to not inbreed, and try to wait a few generations. So they would take a bumble bee from one and maybe a albino something-whatter and breed that, they take some nice babys from that and breed with other snakes as desiered.

To prevent getting far too OT, I will stop talking now

[Dakota]

Inbreeding (1 generation or so..) is not all bad, just morally wrong.. but when it happens down 4-6+ generations, that's when it has past from "You got a problem" to "You need to stop".