New Cage!

[Spankenstyne]

Barring completely replicating their natural environment there really is no perfect substrate. People will have preferences for their own reasons, I like many others have found Aspen to be the best solution for my Northern Blueys. There are other ways that will work though.

Keep in mind that Repti-Carpet will require a lot more work to clean. It's very absorbent and will pull the liquids in which makes it very difficult to clean & becomes a bacterial breeding ground. You may find you need to soak it & scrub it and possibly even steam it to get it clean. It can be very time consuming to work with. Folks that use those types of materials will usually keep 2 or 3 pieces to rotate through and to clean while another is in use.

Impaction is a greatly overstated risk. Healthy, well hydrated animals don't have those issues. Most of my reptiles are kept on shavings and occasionally ingest some that they easily pass. I have a good friend who has even had a kingsnake devour and pass a blue shop towel, yes an entire piece. He showed it to me. It came out the other end compressed & shaped like a poop and he was able to pull it mostly back into it's original shape. Not something I recommend trying at home lol...

That said I would also avoid feeding on anything like cypress mulch which has long spear-like pieces which can perforate the digestive tract, and things like cat litter that will clump together once it gets moist inside the body. That's where you can have problems in healthy animals.

Also please understand that folks talking about their BTS burrowing aren't speaking hypothetically from something they have read, but rather are speaking from experience & as mentioned previously by some with actual field experience with them in the wild.
All of my BTS (Northerns and Indos) often burrow into their substrate and will sometimes spend hours at a time buried or partly buried. While they won't dig deep intricate tunnels networks like some reptiles, they definitely make use of the ability to burrow into substrate when offered the opportunity. There is plenty of literature out there that supports this & states that in the wild they burrow to escape the heat and hide from predators. Hides of course will be used if there is no alternative and can at times simulate burrows, but even with hides available mine still also burrow.

[Richard.C]

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[El Lobo]

A couple more pics on the subject.

This girl was found burrowed down under the roots of a grass plant.

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It's a bit hard to see but in the centre of this pic there is an opening to a tunnel in the grass used by three young wild Blotchies. They had a small network of these in an area approximately 1 x 4 meters.

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[Richard.C]

Thats very common norm,the network of tunnels leading to sleep spots with blotchies,the easterns do it as well,but sleep spots usually better protected,eg xompost piles of grass clippings,under corrugated tin sheets ect,they dont generally dig deep burrows like monitors,but rather a shallow depression in soil alot of the time there back being exposed at ground level

[Lea]

Excellent pictures, Norm and Richard, perfect examples of their burrowing nature.

In the wild, Shinglebacks will dig into a small rock crevice, gouging out the clay or sandy soils, to form small burrows that are protected from the elements. They also form small mud huts in the sides of dry creek beds! I've found that even in the outdoor enclosures, at home, where I've built hides for them, rather than just walk into a human made hut, they'll dig under it and curl up there. The hides are secure, protected from the weather- but, as the saying goes, the shinglebacks in particular, really do like to make their own bed and lie in it!

[ManahShepard]

I appreciate you guys giving me advice, etc, but its not something I asked for. I know the risks of repti-carpet, I've been using it for years and its something I personally feel safe with using. Whether you feel impaction is an overstated risk or not - I lost three of my animals to impaction from using substrate in the past.

I'm not using substrate.

I just came on here to show you guys his new cage, not debate on whats a good substrate or not or whether the animals burrow - which even with the pictures, those are more so them hiding rather than burrowing - I still do not agree on. We have webbing on our fingers and feet, doesn't mean we necessarily go about in the water all the time.

Marbles is safe and happy where he is, I watch him every day and he is perfectly fine with the alternatives I've given him.

If I'm extremely concerned with the matter I'll speak with James on it.

[Richard.C]

My picture is one brumating outdoors,theres another 7 within 3 feet of that one doing the exact same thing,been thete since may,and still there now

I use fake grass carpet to,with some animalss,nothing wrong with it,often the buggers get under it anyhow,even with hides supplied,they like a tight fitting hide/s,to feel secure,a plus of deep substrate is it offers full cage as a hide so they can hide anywhere

[Lea]

. We have webbing on our fingers and feet, doesn't mean we necessarily go about in the water all the time.

Shucks, my lack of syndactyly must make me an anomaly.

[ManahShepard]

Its there. But its small and nearly gone due to our evolution. Most mammals have them - the ones that don't have hooves - to somewhat get through the water.

But, that wasn't entirely my point. I was just saying.

[Lea]

Its there. But its small and nearly gone due to our evolution. Most mammals have them - the ones that don't have hooves - to somewhat get through the water.

But, that wasn't entirely my point. I was just saying.

The same as we were "just saying" to you about substrate, burrowing and nature ... You may ask one question, but often it leads to others, or a place for explanation. I'm sure you would rather hear the evidence behind all of our claims about why using some sort of substrate is good, than us just laying down the law and telling you it was necessary, without the evidence to back it up.

But I was just saying ...

[BlueGuy]

Intersting debate. Even though it seems as though there was a little more then just a debate going on here lol. But it will definitely keep my mind open when it comes to deciding on substrate whether or not it be fake grass or Aspen or even jungle mix I will have to put deeper thought into now when choosing (its a good thing). Thank for arguing lol. It was very informative especially with all the pictures.

[Lea]

You are welcome, blueguy. It's always great sharing knowledge after observing wild skinks in their natural habitats. It gives us perspective when we try to replicate their habitats and try to give them the best, in captivity.

[Sarikazam]

Could I just ask all the breeders on here; have you ever had trouble with impaction with whatever substrate you use, with however many skinks you have kept over the years? I think that is the real question which should be asked.

[Richard.C]

No for me,no impaction,ive used sand,aquarium gravel,potting soil,local soil,very dusty,so only a couple of times,newspaper,fake grass carpet ,various mulches,even wood shavings,theres pros and cons with every substrate,blueys do well on most substrates to,if impaction bothers you,feed them away from substrate,out of cage,elevated feeding area,or leave an area free from substrate

Theres no right or wrong substrates,so use what works best for you,dont be shy in experimenting either,always room for new ideas and options

[Lea]

I don't think there are many wrong substrates, only those that are irritants, like chemically treated wood chips or those with high dust content. Continually feeding on top of a substrate that could cause impaction, if ingested, such as gravel or sand, is obviously best avoided.

Not to labour on the wild side, but it's worth considering what they live on and in, in their wild habitats. They'll eat bugs out of long grasses, road kill from gravelly, dusty tracks. I'm certainly not saying to put your skink at risk by keeping it on gravel and sand, but I am encouraging you to keep perspective. We can take away risks without taking away their pleasures in life. If we had to live in a glass tank for the rest of our lives, I'm sure most of us would appreciate a "ball pond" to play in, once in a while.

[El Lobo]

I want to make it clear I didn't not offer any opinion at all on choice of substrates, I only sought clarification of the claim made that BTS are not burrowers which insinuated this was as a result of research conducted. There is no problem with contradicting anything which may be considered acceptable practice, but don't state it as a fact without some degree of support. Instead, state it as what it is: an opinion.

I hope you realise that your summary dismissal of photographic evidence we have provided in favour of your own personal conviction is, at the least, just a tad irritating. LeaBilby, Richard and I have between us decades of experience of these animals, both captive and wild.

And no, blue tongues are more so opportunistic hiders, they're not really built for /burrowing/. If something is easy to pick up and hide beneath they'll most likely hide beneath it. Like any small animal trying to hide from predators in the sky.

I found a very young Blotchy weighing probably about 50gms curled up under a firewood log that weighed 5-6Kgs. I wonder how he managed to pick that up and hold it with those little short legs long enough to get the rest of his body under. He didn't...he burrowed under!

BTW that picture of the Blotchy I posted was after she was found completely UNDER soil amongst the roots of the grass, not on the surface.

[Spankenstyne]

I don't think anyone is saying that any one substrate choice is perfect. One can find flaws with pretty much any of the choices, there is always going to be some sort of risk no matter what the choice is. This was part of what I was pointing out. I think it's what has been put forward throughout this thread by everyone as well, that there's not just one absolute way to do things.
There isn't anything wrong with using Repti-Carpet but it's just been suggested that there is merit to finding a way to allow them to burrow, which has proven to be a natural behaviour of BTS's as has been shown by literature, captive experiences, and field experiences.
It's not a necessity of life, but it may improve the quality of it. It also doesn't mean one needs to abandon Repti-Carpet to achieve this either. Just sayin'

Challenging the status quo should always be encouraged, it's how progress is made, but one should also expect to be able to back up the reasoning behind it when they do so. We've all got opinions and shouldn't be afraid to share them, otherwise what would these discussion boards be for? It would be pretty boring if we all thought the same way. I haven't read this thread as having been any sort of argument, but rather as a discussion & experiences shared to back up points made. We're very fortunate to have many folks with lots of field experience with these animals to share some of the natural behaviours they see in the wild. I find their insights invaluable & can understand the frustration with having those experiences so quickly dismissed & given no merit.

Also keep in mind that being a public forum what's written here isn't always necessarily just for those directly involved in the discussion but also for those that may be searching out answers of their own, so it's important to be able to take the time to explain the reasoning behind certain points for others who come across the discussion.

It should be mentioned that we're all on the same side here, looking out for the best interests of our skinks.

[Shaggraa]

Mine borrows. I think you are wrong in saying that they aren't. Mine borrows to hide, borrows to sleep, borrows to play, etc. Lol

[James Wilson]

First let me say Marbles new home looks great. Now let me comment a little on the subject of substrate.

For starters, I have come across BTS in the past that were impacted with substrate. Some old timers here might remember Lissa (the "white" Northern I had at one time). When I got Lissa as a 6 month old juvi, she was totally packed with the crushed walnut reptile bedding. She would not move, and she would not (or more likely could not eat). I had no idea what was wrong with her, but after her first poop, it was quite obvious what was wrong. Her poop consisted of approximately 90% crushed walnut bedding with the remaining 10% being actual poop that served as a binding agent for the crushed walnuts. The percentage of walnut bedding became less and less with each passing poop until after a couple weeks, she was all cleaned out with no more pieces of walnut bedding showing up in her poop. I was really surprised it did not kill her, and looking back, I think it came pretty close.

Up until that time I had never really seen anything like that. However, since then I have come across a few skinks that seemed to relish eating substrate when given the opportunity.

I constantly hear people here arguing that skinks need bedding to burrow in order be happy. In all honesty this is a pointless argument. I seriously doubt that skinks even know that emotion. What I do know is that my skinks are not in the wild. They are in captivity. As a result I feel that I owe what they need to thrive (food, water, shelter, and proper care), and they get all of these. When my skinks feel the need to get out of sight, they go into their hide logs. When they want to climb and/or bask, they climb up on top of their hide logs. Keep in mind they do this because it is convenient, in the same way that it is convenient when they burrow into grass, or hide under a piece of wood or tin when given the opportunity. The point is just because they burrow into some grass does not necessarily mean they are primarily burrowing lizards. It is just a testament to their opportunistic sheltering habits.

Substrate
There are many different opinions on the subject of substrate. I have personally tried many of them myself, and I have found that there is no perfect substrate. However, I have found newspaper, Care-fresh, and artificial-turf have all proven to be effective substrates for me. Cypress mulch is also frequently used and recommended by many keepers. Aspen Bedding has been used by many hobbyists, but it often contains long sharp slivers that can work their way into the skinks nostrils, eyes, or vent, causing serious injury. It is also hard to keep it out of the skinks food, and can cause very serious problems when ingested. I also avoid orchid bark for the same reasons and because of the possibility of respiratory and skin problems as a result from the red dust that it produces. Note: Never use cedar chips due to the toxic oils that they secrete. Most people here know I use artificial turf, and it is not perfect either. I just find it posses less risks for the skinks.

Blue-tongues will often burrow in their substrate if given the opportunity (especially when kept in a glass tank). They do this because they feel exposed and it is the easiest way to get some cover, and out of sight from potential dangers. Blue-tongues are not primarily burrowing lizards by nature; rather they are opportunistic shelter seekers that do not require a substrate to burrow in if given appropriate hides and an enclosure that provides them with some sense of security.

Sand is also not recommended, mainly because it is very hard to maintain. Blue-tongues can be very messy lizards, causing the sand to have a very unpleasant odor in a relatively short period of time, and it is just not practical to replace the sand as often as you will need to. Keepers that oppose this logic have pointed out to me that sand is often encountered in the wild by many blue-tongue species. While this is true, it does not change the fact that it can get into your skinks eyes, nose, and food, unnecessarily causing potential health risks to your skink. The reason for this is that in the wild the skink is not forced to be in constant contact with the sand 24 hours a day, for its entire life, as it would be in captivity. Let me try to explain. Many of the lizards from the south-western United Stated come in close contact with many different cactus species. However, cactus is not the best choice of cage décor for these lizards in captivity. The point is, just because something is encountered in the wild, does not automatically make it beneficial in captivity. In captivity we should try to duplicate the beneficial aspects of the wild while decreasing the dangerous and/or rigorous aspects that the wild also presents. Of course these are my opinions, but they are based on years of reasearch and first hand experience.

UPDATE NOTE: At one time I occasionally used aspen bedding for my skinks, but I later stopped because of the dangers the sharp splinters posed to the skinks. However, a few years later a special situation came up that led me to try aspen once again (this time in the form of aspen shavings). I thought it would be a good idea to use with my gravid female so she could have some “nesting" materials, and so that the babies could have a place to hide if they were born when I was not home. It turned out I was home, so no worries there. That being said, the mother ended up eating lots of the shavings. I did not notice until I removed the shavings when I was switching her back to her regular turf. While digging through all of the shavings I noticed her feces were filled with chunks of aspen. A couple days after switching her back to turf, she made a really big poop that was filled with large pieces of aspen. She later made another nice poop, and there were still some aspen shavings in there (see photo below). As a result of this, I would definitely recommend using caution when using aspen shavings as a substrate for BTS, and I ended up giving my large sack of aspen to a local reptile rescue.

[Fatal_S]

I can only speak from my experience, but I have never had a skink purposely eat substrate. Occasionally when I put a skink on a new substrate they taste it. Or if they get food into the substrate they might accidentally ingest it, though they're very good at removing the substrate from what's in their mouths.

I do remove substrate from preggo mothers, sick skinks, and babies. My logic was opposite yours, James. I knew the babies come out eating the goo that's attached to them, and don't want the substrate stuck to that goo. Might the mother have had some ova in the substrate then eaten them? But she probably could have licked off most of the substrate. Very odd that she ate that much. Also, gross photo, thanks XP.

I see no issue with using carpet or towels or such and then hides. I like giving mine substrate to burrow in and absorb messes, but as long as a person provides for the needs the skink should adapt. I do disagree with the non-burrowing comment, they burrow well, but they also use any available hides.

I will be adding substrate to my mama-tanks now. They just look so bored and miserable in their sterile tanks.