Do you think skinks have souls?

[Scincus]

I'm curious about what you guys think. If you don't believe in souls then, hypothetically, if souls existed would skinks have them?

I personally would like to believe that if there is some sort of afterlife that my BTS would go there too. Some people however seem to think anything that isn't as friendly, loving, or fluffy as a dog or cat couldn't possibly have a soul and are "cold and heartless creatures".

Please keep in kind though I am not wanting this to turn into a religious debate. Religious beliefs are fine, but bashing others' beliefs will cause problems. (Not that I expect this to happen but just in case).

[Lauriek]

The terms "cold and heartless creatures" is something that is applied by humans, who try and anthropomorphise (make human like) an object - whether that object is animal, vegetable, or mineral and I think that encompases almost everything. We all have a life force - that's the 'thing' or entity that makes us alive. Believe me, some dogs and cats aren't friendly or loving ! If you watch nature documentaries, and I'm thinking of my favourite natural historian David Attenborough, many of his documentaries show the hunter and the hunted and often the result of the kill. Some would say the leopard is being cruel to catch and kill the zebra, but, the leopard has to eat. The leopard doesn't have any concept of 'cruelty'. And, without human interference, such events have kept/keep populations under control.

For many years it was believed that we humans were the only sentient beings on this planet. I believe a broad definition of sentience is to perceive things subjectively. Personally, I think there are levels of sentience. I am a scientist, yet I believe in magic! There are things in this world that can't be explained. Many would say an explanation has yet to be found. Faith is one concept that is very difficult to explain. If you have the ability to listen, you can hear many things.

Getting back to sentience, I think my lizards may perceive subjectively, but do they remember? I know they respond to routines; I know they respond to stimuli. Some time ago I had to give Sheba oral medication. After giving Sheba oral medication for two days she did not want to be caught because she seemed to 'know' that something unpleasant was about to happen.

Krisym, I think the answer is, if you believe that, then they do.

[Fatal_S]

I am of the belief that life is a form of energy, and thus all living things have the same type of energy. I don't know if I'd call it a soul, and I also don't really think there's an afterlife, but rather that the energy gets recycled. In other words I think they have as much of a soul as any other living thing does.

[Romeyrider]

I would like to think all animals have souls.

[Teacup]

I voted 'yes' but want to clarify: I don't believe souls exist. I think it's a convenient word to describe that intangible sense of self and/or life that humans experience. Considering the weight we give the word (as if souls give value), I think that IF souls were to exist, all living creatures would have one. Doesn't matter if they're fluffy, scaly, or slimy; they are alive and thus have value.

[Dood]

The original meaning of soul meant "life force" so yeah, all living things have one

[Jbolar]

soul is such a religious oriented word, and i don't see the point of anthropomorphizing human beliefs , characteristics and emotions onto animals. yes they are alive, yes they require a certain criteria to live and thrive... i.e the question "is he happy" if he's thriving and eating than i guess you could associate that with happiness.. very odd thread, and don't see the merit of it's contribution to the skink's available info..

[Roarschak11]

soul is such a religious oriented word, and i don't see the point of anthropomorphizing human beliefs , characteristics and emotions onto animals. yes they are alive, yes they require this to live and thrive... i.e the question "is he happy" if he's thriving and eating than i guess you could associate that with happiness.. very odd thread, and don't see the merit of it's contribution to the skink's available info..

I agree.

[Fatal_S]

I happen think it's extremely egotistical to assume that all non-human animals need to be happy is basic necessities. Animals prove over and over how much more there is to them, and people still want to treat them like they have the intelligence/emotions of decorative lamps...

What does "merit to it's contribution to the skink's available info" mean? I'm honestly lost. Are you saying that threads need to have a specific merit-based point?

And if you care about your own "soul" you probably care about the "souls" of the beings you love.
Young me at bible-camp:
"What is heaven?"
"Heaven is a place of complete happiness."
"So when I go to heaven, will my pets be there?"
"No, pet's don't have souls."
"But then I won't be completely happy..."
"You'll be completely happy because you'll be with God."
"So being with God means I stop caring about my pets?"
"No, you're just happy because you're with God."
"I'd be happier with my pets..."
(We had the same conversation but replace pets with "family members who won't go to heaven because they follow other religions". I stopped liking bible-camp very quickly.)

The concept of souls, life, and intelligence/emotions in all things is interesting to think and chat about. I welcome discussions like this; I'm the type of person who loves a good philosophical conversation

[El Lobo]

Gary Kowalski wrote in 'The Souls of Animals':

“Animals, like us, are living souls. They are not things. They are not objects. Neither are they human. Yet they mourn. They love. They dance. They suffer. They know the peaks and chasms of being.”

“To me, animals have all the traits indicative of soul. For soul is not something we can see or measure...No one can prove that animals have souls. Asking for proof would be like demanding proof that I love my wife and children, or wanting me to prove that Handel's Messiah is a glorious masterpiece of music. Some truths simply cannot be demonstrated. But if we open our hearts to other creatures and allow ourselves to sympathize with their joys and struggles, we will find they have the power to touch and transform us. There is an inwardness in other creatures that awakens what is innermost in ourselves.”

Alf Wight the English vet who wrote under the pen name of James Herriot was once asked if animals have souls. He replied:

"If having a soul means being able to feel love and loyalty and gratitude, then animals are better off than a lot of humans."

[timisimaginary]

i think, even as this thread shows, people have many different ideas or definitions of what they think 'soul' means. there are the strict religious definitions, the vague life-force or energy concepts, or even something like the Force in star wars. i think it tells you more about the person than it does about skinks or souls or anything like that.

when i think of "soul" the word is wrapped up in the idea of something that survives bodily death. so having a soul implies an afterlife and that this being will continue to exist in some conscious form after death. that's not something i believe in, for skinks or other animals, including human beings. i believe in a consciousness that develops in living creatures, composed of a complicated combination of self-awareness, emotion, thoughts, ideas, etc. that transcends the merely physical-chemical-electrical biological processes that occur in the brain. but i don't see it as something metaphysical or supernatural, and i don't see it as something that survives the death of the brain. this consciousness exists at varying levels in different animals, at a much higher level in human beings; a lesser level in highly intelligent mammals such as dolphins, apes, and dogs; perhaps at a very small level in reptiles; and pretty much nonexistent in fish, insects and invertebrates (i keep tarantulas too, and i'm pretty sure they don't have anything approximating a consciousness or a "soul").

to what degree skinks embody such a consciousness i have no idea, but i don't think you need to believe in souls or higher consciousnesses to care for an animal, to respect the value of life, and to provide your pets with a "happy", or at least a long, safe and contented, life.

[Fatal_S]

i think it tells you more about the person than it does about skinks or souls or anything like that.

This is exactly why I love these types of discussions so much

[jaylbird]

Ok, everyone hang on to your posts!
I am a faith-driven man that has his own beliefs, but I also appreciate and base much of my belief in fact. This fact is considered by other "religious" people(s) as myth or convolution that causes one to stumble. I see it as being as informed and intelligent as I possibly can be. SO... this topic can be drowned in religious speak, but I choose to go to the likes of Socrates and Plato. Wikipedia does have a decent amount of info on the fact of a soul, but here's the nutshell (and there's more available than wikipedia!).

Plato links the immaterial soul (or psyche) to the physical body, as three separate parts: mind, emotion and desire.
The mind is considered the only part that is immortal and the part that governs the other two. So actually, the ability to reason and control emotion and desire is what dictates a soul. Aristotle argued that the main difference between animals and humans was the ability to reason and make informed, decisive choices. It has also been debated that animals have the ability to make informed choices as well and it is not based solely on a reward system.

Many psychologists believe that the soul is the connection between the physical body and the immortal spirit of a being. It is considered the part of a being that dreams, or connects the physical mind to the spiritual plane. Now do animals dream? I have seen my dalmatian Oreo chase things in her sleep. She's had nightmares that scare her awake; howling, or barking wildly! Has anyone witnessed their skink dreaming? If so, than I believe you have your answer. Skinks then will be thought of as having a soul. The REAL issue that SOME may want an answer for, is will your pet be with you in the "afterlife"?

I could get into this as well, but I'd rather not step on any toes...unless someone wants my take on this as well.

[Scotts1au]

There is some good discussion here, I must admit to having my finger poised to lock/delete the thread for fear of how such a question might be responded to.

Pretty funny to think about a bluey dreaming about a giant snail.

[AndersBlueTongue]

I do love some of the arguments here. Personally, I believe anything with a life force and a consciousness ,whether plant,animal,or human, has a soul. The definition of the word Soul can be debated,though. I do feel skinks have a soul in the sense that they are alive and conscious of the world around them. To be alive, you must have a spirit or life force inside of you,correct? Even though skinks do not have the same mental capacity for thinking,logic,or intelligence as other creatures they still display a small range of recognition and emotion. Their emotions and thoughts seem to revolve around survival and instinct. I suppose it all depends on what criteria you feel a creature must meet in order to have a soul. some,like myself,believe a creature only needs to live in order to have a soul. others may beleive some higher form of intelligence is required in order for a creature to have a soul. When I was forced to go to church as a child,the catholic priests I spoke with told me no animals have souls. They could never give me an explaination as to why they believed this,or why people have souls and animals dont, I only got the "thats just the way it is." cop out response,which I believe is total BS.