not a happy update

[Linnea]

Much has happened. not much positive i need some serious feedback. im very stressed too.

i discovered my new bluey Pomme is very very frightened of me and everyone else, and he is very reclusive. his weight is steady despite my efforts of giving him proper sized and well mixed meals.
during his settling in period he was very calm and nice, and didnt mind me, then somehow he changed. when i was going to give him a treat, he open mouth hissed. this behaviour has continued. he jumps away from me even when i change water.

i dont bother him when he hides, and i dont pick him up - i think its for the best he is kept in his terrarium happily. when he is out basking by himself, and not on a feeding day, i give him a treat and pat his head or body a little. it works great for his motivation and he forgets to run.

so what more? he breathes very heavily when frightened, and he has a small opening in his mouth (nothing in his mouth and he can close it).

Litchie has a vet visit booked on my holiday in february. he has dropped too much weight during brumation, something is wrong. he is in spring mood now and looks the other way when i serve food, and he doesnt stay still for 2 seconds. makes me feel very very worried too. i put in food for him every other day in the hopes of seeing positive weight gain. so far it has had little to no results. i took the decision of booking the vet visit 1 week ago, now i just have to wait for my turn.

if you are even more worried than me i will try to get a time next weekend if they have open spots. its only 55 euro for a visit and they specialize on exotic pets only.

im really not mistreating my skinks food, water, shed, temps, space, treats, vitamins, humidity, hides and attention when they scratch the glass. somehow this spring isnt very lucky.
they are of course kept VERY separate. not risking anything.

photos. though i hate to see litchies photos right now, i give him all the food he could eat and more while i wait......but im very very scared.

please, any feedback, ideas or.......anything is appreciated! (even the debate on wether Pomme is northern or a gigas/scincoides mix)

[Katrina]

How much weight has Litchie lost? What was his weight going into brumation and what is it now? Not eating and high energy are very normal for males in breeding mode and it's very hard to tell from photos if you should be concerned.

I remember years ago Lisa was worried about one of her males (Santos, maybe??) that wasn't eating and was losing too much weight and became calcium deficient. I wouldn't think you need to be very worried yet (depending on what the weight difference is), but you could try searching for those old threads and see what Lisa ended up doing.

As for Pomme - you can't do much more than what you are doing. Some skinks will never be very social or unafraid but just keep trying and be patient.

[Richard.C]

You have 2 northerns linnea,do they reside close to each other?

With in view of each other?

Ive found with northerns,especially males this time of year,mid to late winter is the time they are most flighty/aggressive

Especially if they have cycled,my 2 big boys i have to be careful of as if i put hand in they are snappy at that time of year,grab first ask questions later time snappy,theres a definate swing in behaviour,biggest male is normally chased away by one of my females except for that time of year

My young male is a bit different,more flighty ,year round though,bit of a wuss really

Males often look there leanest this time of year to,like an axe handle ,they get active but dont eat alot,normally have females on the mind,perhaps other males to,as they can get really aggressive with other males,ive never seen that much aggression in other tiliqua species

So could just be they are acting normal relative to the season there,but keep a close eye on them regardless,im sure u do anyways,litche will probably start devouring food again shortly when the testosterone levels start falling,keep us posted on how it goes and try not to stress,being your first winter with a new animal may have triggered a change in behaviour with litche,possably the new fellow to

[Linnea]

Katrina, ill get a new weight on him in 2 days, his feeding day is tomorrow and he is sleeping now. i got his past weight written up somewhere, just have to dig it out. ill need them for the vet check (unless he starts picking up a few grams steadily)

Richard, they are kept in entirely different rooms, and will do so for ~4 months more. They dont share the same terrarium items (the plastic tunnel is a well washed hand me down). But the airflow in this house goes from room to room. Maybe that is enough? they should be able to hear eachother, i can hear them both clearly.

Litchie is crazy. attacks the glass with sheer enthusiasm. runs around in circles, climbs. wakes up at 6 (he wakes me up), goes to bed at 6. hes not aggressive in any way, and is even more eager to see whats going on.
Pomme is lazy. wakes up at 10 when we are out of the house, or mid day and stays basking until long after the lamp is off (he wakes me up).

Im not sure if the odd time of getting Pomme has affected him. it was winter after all, and i dont think he has been cycled before. the past owner mustve had tropical climate indoors. I'll see what happens. at least a bite from Pomme wont be as bad as one from Litchie, i noticed his mouth is smaller

thanks for your input!

[kenn]

Last day I was talking to Richard about this not eating/weight loose..

If I was your vet, I would take blood. And offcourse the parasite faeces check
Reason: kidney/liver.

Offcourse you can wait, but I would not feel good about it...

[kl]

First off, I think it's a very beautiful animal.

The second picture makes the animal look thinner though in the first picture he is curled up a bit which always makes them look chunkier so it's hard to compare the pictures. I don't see any protruding hip or spine which is where I'd first notice problems in skinks that are getting too thin. You said this animal was brumated. Is there a chance you did not provide the proper lower end temperatures requirements for the species during brumation? If you kept it too warm during brumation then the metabolism may stay too high and it could lose weight. Best thing though is just have a vet do some lab work to make sure everything is ok.

I've seen some of my animals with this slightly open mouth while at rest but then when you disturb the animal it closes it. I'm not exactly sure if it means anything is necessarily wrong unless you notice any swollen or reddish tissue. I'm sure the vet will examine the mouth to look for anything like that.

KL

[Linnea]

no hip bones or spine showing, no. and he drinks water too (thankfully)

too warm hmm :/ i will have to keep closer check next winter. it sounds likely that this might explain part of the problem.
however, he slept under the warm side of the log sometimes, and under the cold at other times.

feeding day today.

[kl]

I don't breed Northerns so I don't have a lot of knowledge of the proper cooling temperatures for the species. I have a few friends who breed them and I'll ask them about correct temperatures and then you can compare to what you were doing. If a skink is healthy and is given proper brumation temperatures, they almost seem to gain weight during it. I'll reply as soon as I hear back from my friend about his Northerns. Maybe Jeff will read this and post his temperatures that he works with Northerns as well. Also, if you are not planning on breeding the animal there's no reason to put it through brumation.



Kim

[Linnea]

main problem there is that im not really trying to brumate my skinks.

Litchie fell asleep last year, the first winter i had him, and it surprised me since day temps and night temps were fairly well maintained. night temps were about 1-3 C colder, and basking temp took a bit longer to get proper.
i also have many handwarmers ready in case of emergency, but the temps havent dropped much this winter.

my skink fell asleep the exact same week as last year too, end of october. been wondering if i can blame the light.

i just assumed everything was like that this year as well, thats why it probably sounds like i tried to brumate them, when all i did was to put them in their respective homes :/

to get proper temperatures would be a great help. getting an even stronger lightbulb i think would be a bit dangerous, but there are of course other ways to keep him from falling asleep.

[Linnea]

update.

i tried feeding yesterday and today. no luck at all. i put some banana on top of the food and he ate that <.< thinking of mixing it in with the regular food and add some extra calcium tomorrow.

when i put in his food bowl he walks right over it several times. pouring wood chips into it.....so i change the food at least twice every feeding as to not cause any risk of injesting the chips. takes some extra work, but not bad.

on top of that he pushes his face into the glass for hours at a time. he eve uses the food bowl to put his tail on to reach really high up. last year he was less intense, he has no sense of self preservation.

Pomme is doing very well! i think. But now instead of hiding he sleeps on his basking spot in the open since 2 days. was so surprised when i turned on the lights and he was half buried near the baskign spot. Much more normal, tongue flickign and food interest. no running.

[StaceyLeigh]

My Northern came out of brumation really early this year and was very restless, always rubbing against the glass, looking out. He did not eat for 4-6 weeks, not until he was done mating with Calypso. Then about 10 days after the last copulation, he started eating like a champ Maybe yours is looking for a female, and that's all he can think about right now?

[Linnea]

yeah, thats what hes got in mind

lets hope he eats like a champ much sooner than 4-6 weeks. he will have absolutely no meal restriction for a while, if hes healthy otherwise.

whereas Pomme has regular sized meals twice a week <.<

[Spindown]

I literally had a nightmare about this happening to my male northern this last night!

I'm sure its just cause he wants to mate but a vet visit is never a bad thing either. You are such a good momma to be worried about him

[Vegasarah]

What are you trying to feed him? Rocket went on a hunger strike after brumation last year and the thing that got him eating was LIVE FOOD. That and warm, stinky dog food. It seemed the wiggling of the meal worm was too much for him to resist, so he ate a few of those and then I gave him some slightly heated up dog food with the meal worms sprinkled on top and he went crazy for it! After two feedings like that, he was back to his normal healthy green diet. Try not to freak out, you can't see hip bones or anything so he is probably okay.

[Linnea]

i still havent weighted him, sorry.

i change his water 2-3 times daily since he fills the bowl with wood chips and then try to drink from it x.x

ive tried feeding aragula, cucumber, dogfood with ox meat and liver, catfood with calf meat. he accepts banana, but hes not getting more of that
tomorrow im attempting to feed bell peppers, carrot and more of the calf meat.

heating it was a good idea, ill try.

as for live food, its available, but he normally spits them out after chewing on them i can go get some zophobas and try though. pomme can eat the rest if litchie doesnt xD

[Lea]

Egg is a good food for a picky eater who needs to maintain or gain weight. It's an excellent protein in source and generally liked by most skinks. It won't give such a broad range of nutrients as the mix of fruit and veg, but it may be enough to give him the energy he needs to come out of brumation and get his mojo back.

Banana is a great energy source and even if you feed on its own for a couple of meals, it will help recover electrolytes and again, give him energy to take more of an interest in food. Other fruits, such as mango or melons are also high sugar, high GI, foods and usually entice picky eaters. While not so good for slow release energy, they can be a good pick me up to get your skink going. They also have a good water content and are useful in maintaining hydration at these times.

He looks slender, but not too thin, going from the photo and as you have reported, he still has good energy levels and is taking an interest in his world, there shouldn't be a need for too much concern, at this stage.

Bearing that in mind, after brumation and during periods of abstinence r indifference to food, they are more susceptible to infection, with a knock on effect from 'starvation', being a lowered or possibly inadequate immune system.

While at this stage, there is no cause for alarm, it is good to be aware of potential and not necessarily current problems.

[Linnea]

live food didnt work, egg didnt work, regular feeding today didnt work.
the banana, can i add calcium or vitamin powder on it and feed a little?
fruit salad it is, ill prepare one tomorrow.

tank you everyone for all your help so far, me and litchie are still trying hes never been this spoiled x.x
right now hes ran another 3 (or 10) laps around his tank and is drinking water

Pomme is good.
hes been hiding for 8 days. looks very healthy. i just checked on him, and he was in a nice mood.

[Richard.C]

He does sound like hes in frisky mode linnea,the pacing and not much interest in food is what my males are like,ofter they are at there lowest weights during that time of year