BTS with narcolepsy?!!

[Susann]

OK, so, I'm getting really worried about baby #1.
Something has to be wrong with him; he never keeps his eyes open more than 20-30 seconds at a time! No matter what he is doing, no matter what I do with him, and no matter what's going on around him!
I am not kidding and I am not exaggerating. He falls asleep in the middle of eating! Several times! He'll take a bite, swallow, then close his eyes for about 5 seconds; then wake up, take another couple of bites, and then fall asleep again!
I can be vacuuming the floor around his tank, and his tank is on the floor, and he'll fall asleep!

IMG_3958 - Copy.JPG

I meant to shoot some videos of the different, unlikely situations he'll fall asleep in, but my camera ran out of power after just one short snippet, but maybe this is enough for you to see what I'm talking about?
And yes, he closes both eyes, and it's not just a case of him closing his eyes because his face is rubbing against the baseboard; this is what he does whether he is alone in his tank, being carried around the house, or exploring a vast open space. Or in the middle of a meal!
When he closes his eyes at the end of the video, it's probably a case of closing them because he is rubbing his head, but the first time he closes his eyes, at about the 11 second mark of the video, is more representative of what it looks like every 20-30 seconds no matter what he is doing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RObRhVizJE

I realize he's not really falling asleep, because he is moving while his eyes are closed; in most other cases though, he stops and is still when his eyes close. But his eyes literally never stay open more than 30 seconds!

Is this normal??? Has anyone seen anything like it?

[Fatal_S]

Does he often rub his face against everything? Maybe his eyes are itchy? Is he on substrate?

[Susann]

Nope, no rubbing. And he's the one who rearranges his tank the least. Almost always sleeping.
I still have all of them on paper towels, so no substrate irritation.

[Fatal_S]

Well there goes my two theories. No signs of respiratory infection or other illness?

[Karen]

Have you treated your carpet or floor with anything that might be irritating his eyes? Not sure how that might affect him while he's in his tank or if it even could...

[LarissaLurid]

Well, it seemed t hat the first time he was randomly closing his eyes, his breathing got faster and heavier right before, which could mean something? But he definitely wasn't randomly falling asleep, he just was closing his eyes.

[Fatal_S]

The drooping eyes, heavier breathing are signs of dozing off. The movement doesn't mean she wasn't asleep, it means she wasn't in deep sleep. The brain can keep sending the move signals just after sleeping. Then they get startled back to being awake, only to doze off again.

[Bird_Brain]

Wow, very interesting. I have never experienced this nor do I have any suggestions other than a vet visit. The only things I can think of are make sure temps are correct and possibly look at nostrils and make sure they are clear and open. Maybe not getting enough oxygen? I would think youd have a dead skink rather than a sleepy skink if that was the case, but those are the only things I could think of. Please keep us posted!

[BruinsEv]

i could be wrong but it looks like she is rubbing up against the sides. I know mammals are different, but my pup did similar things when he was a baby and had an eye infection. mind you, he could use his paws as well.
Maybe she is allergic to the carpet or something?

[El Lobo]

Apart from the obvious recommendation of going to a vet there may be a few thing that could be tried. It could be something as simple as being over susceptible to light which might be remedied by offering more shaded areas such as hides or artificial plants to filter the direct overhead lighting. Using a darker coloured and less reflective floor covering than current might help to eliminate light as a source of antagonism.

I thought narcolepsy was linked to brief periods of REM but from the video there does not appear to be any response in the eyelids.

If it is a blood oxygen problem I would expect to see more effort being exerted in the breathing action. Dyspnea (shortness of breath) causes an involuntary heaving action in an attempt to draw a greater volume of air with each breath. Hypoxia is where insufficient oxygen is circulating through the body leading to (at its worst) necrosis at circulatory extremities. It is relatively easy to detect in warm blooded animals as the feet, ears etc. appear cold to the touch. One area though that may be common to all is the mouth and in particular the gums. With poor oxygenation they will not be a healthy pink colour but paler and even present as grey/blue. That is a complicated symptom with a BTS due to the healthy tongue colour.

[Lea]

From my experience, it sounds as if your skink is suffering an illness of some description. Often the first signs are lethargy, malaise, indifference and lack of appetite, having a small bit and seeming to fall asleep in mid chew! Possibly a respiratory infection, but it could be any number of things, particularly if there appear to be no other signs or symptoms other than his ease to drop off to sleep.

Going through trauma can also affect them. Maybe reduce the stimulation, as well as seeking advice from a vet.

Looking at your photo, he looks slightly dehydrated- now I am going from a photo, so not the most accurate, but it often goes hand in hand with increased malaise and disinterest, as they just can't be bothered to drink and eat.

We could all guess at the reason, but if this has been a change in behaviour then it's not normal and you should get him to a vet as soon as you can. The longer they go on like this,the harder it is to bring them back to health. Trust me, I've been there and done it. Even hours can make a difference, as infections can easily overwhelm them, especially when they are dehydrated and malnourished.

[Scooter_in_Kindergarten]

could there be something in it's eye? I don't know much about this type of stuff, my skink had eye trauma but it was totally different. Maybe get an eye lubricant and apply?
I think the other's advice might be more legit' but I'm just offering my 2cents, and hope your baby gets better.

[Susann]

Thank you all for so many thoughts! I'll try to address most of them. First off I will tell you that I have a vet appointment, but not until Monday. I feel most comfortable with the vet I have seen in the past, and as "weird" as this problem seems, I'd rather wait until he is in the office, rather than seeing someone new.

Fatal--respiratory or other illness: I see no clear signs other than the closing of eyes. I was getting worried about shallow breathing, but I really don't see any difference in his breathing when compared to the other 5 babies. No sounds with breaths, no bubbles, no excess mucous. He eats like a horse. I've noticed that he doesn't poop as often as many of the other babies, but he DOES poop; I just figured he has slower digestion. But I will mention this to the vet.

Karen--I have not treated the carpet with anything. Yes, the tanks are on the carpet, but other than that, the babies spend hardly any time in direct contact with the carpet; they are so dang fast that we don't dare put them down much yet, we just mostly hold them in our hands and on our laps. I just put this little guy down on a small landing where I could observe if he still falls asleep when given a larger area to explore. When I saw that he does, I decided to get video of it right away as that was the CLEAR sign I needed to know that this was definitely a problem rather than a cute quirk.

Brad--temps have been a bit hard for me to control at times because they are all in small 10 gal tanks; I can get the warm side up to mid 90's with a spot in the low 100's, but on a hot day the cool side is often high 80's. Most of the time though, the tanks are 75-95. Nostrils are clear.

El Lobo--I've wondered about light sensitivity as well, but with my own short experiments, it seems that light (or lack of light) makes no difference. Plus, I don't have artificial lights for them, just CHEs. They are in a bright room opposite 3 large windows, and during the hot summer months I haven't wanted to add any more heat through having lamps on. I figured I would revisit that issue as it got darker and cooler. If no other antagonist is found however, I will put some "blinders" up around, and under, his tank.
Narcolepsy in humans can put you as deep as REM sleep in as little as 5 minutes, but who knows about animals/reptiles?
Blood oxygen... hopefully they have some way of measuring that in small reptiles?

Lea--I wouldn't use the word lethargic when describing him; he is certainly calmer, and, like I said, tends to rearrange his tank less than the other babies, but he does move around and explore his surroundings, and he is very capable of moving quickly! Most of the time I would call him alert; he just tends to stop more often to doze for a second!
He eats well. Hard to say how much he drinks as I don't have the tanks in the general living area, but yes, his eyes have a bit of a "sunken" look, and his eyelids are a darker blue than any of the other babies'. Which is exactly why I started to pay more attention to him than I had before. I really just thought of his frequent falling asleep as a cute baby-quirk. It wasn't until this past week that I have become convinced it is much more than that.
I wouldn't call it a change in behavior, as much as, perhaps, a worsening condition that brought on an increased awareness. I honestly can't say at what point it started. At first we all giggled at the cuteness. It's still super cute, but I'm also super concerned.

Scooter--I very much appreciate your 2 cents' worth I know you've been through a rough time with Scooter's injury and surgery. My gut-feeling though is that it is more of a "dozing" issue than it is an "irritant" issue; the way his eyes seem to droop shut, rather than blinking or closing them. I think that is the consensus of opinions from others as well?

I welcome any other thoughts you might have. I will definitely have a list of things with me to the vet, and I will certainly report back what he says. I will also keep a close eye on little baby #1 to make sure he does not show other signs, as in that case I will rush him in to the first exotic vet I can get a hold of.
Thank you again!

[April_Snow]

I've heard and seen seizures like this but not in BTS's. Epilepsy seems to be rare among reptiles thankfully so I doubt that is the issue. Maybe he's got tourette syndrome even! I don't really know. My dog has OCD so who knows. Maybe a vet check for neurological symptoms would be a good idea.

April

[Spindown]

woah. Definitely let us know how the vet visit goes! hes super cute, I'm rooting for him!

[Richard.C]

ive had some that do the same thing,but still behave normally,and open eyes at times to,not always shut,more when resting or basking,kind of off puting but doesnt seem to bother them

whats the cause im not sure,they grew out of it and returned to normal behaviour,if an eye irate,you would expect them to rub it, will be interesting to see what vet reccomends

[Susann]

Saw the vet today. Didn't really expect him to be able to say much; it's a pretty weird issue... Since the vet said it might give us some clues to bone-density and lung capacity, I did agree to an x-ray, since it's a much less invasive procedure than trying to draw blood from such a small reptile.
Here's the image:

1_Burt - Copy.tif

The vet's opinion is that, even though this baby is only 2 months old, he would like to see more calcification of the bones. The head and "shoulders" look good, but he would have liked to have seen the rest of the skeleton as strongly. He said, even thought they are tiny, the digits don't show up at all, and that's not so good.

So. He gave me a liquid calcium (Neo-Calglucon) to put on a small meal every day. And to get a UVB light. And to get a second x-ray in 3 months to compare.
With nothing else to go on, he's hoping that getting more calcium in his system will perk up his energy. But he also said that this may very well be just a "quirk" that is an individual thing he hopefully will grow out of. As long as he is eating well and growing, and not showing any other signs, observation, under as ideal conditions as possible, is all for now.

Opinions on this?
Anybody else seen x-rays of 2 month old babies? Should the bones be more calcified by now?

[Richard.C]

not sure on bone development in youngens,but being growth period the would need a bit of calcium,perhaps being so young ittakes a while to build up to seeable in x rays,like when gravid females are x rayed,and babies arent always picked up and if so,not very clearly

not sure that would cause eye issue though,alot of mbd specimens are wide eyed and alert

a couple of my kimberley juvies from last season do the same thing,but when active they open eyes,but sit still and its lights out

[Karen]

I did some Googling and found an x-ray of a pair of fused twin shinglebacks. Not sure how good a comparison it is, but it seems like the bones in their feet are very faint almost to the point of not being visible.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8636821.stm